The LDO and its marks

[Greg S]

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[Mark S.]

Awesome thread Gordon, very interesting topic, to be sure.

There are some points that have left me confused, though.

Other than the way it was marked, what difference is there between a Präsidialkanzlei marked award and a LDO marked award? Arent they all exactly the same? Use of the word "reproduction" or "copy" would infer that the LDO version would be inferior to the awarded one, when we know that it isnt...or do we? Do the Präsidialkanzlei have higher contents of precious metals, like what a diamond award had versus its wearing copy? Are we even sure that the word copy had the same meaning then, at least in our context?

With this in mind, that the makers basically are making the same award and marking it differently, what would the purpose of the LDO even be, beyond some type of secondary market quality control? Where are these substandard examples? If I understand it correctly, the Präsidialkanzlei marked awards were the ones that were pinned on their chest by their superior officer..and the LDO was everything else?

More questions:

What about badges that are not even known to ever have a LDO or a Präsidialkanzlei number, like the Schwerin KM badges, or most all of the Luft badges, with the exception of a random L marked badge here and there. There was obviously no distinction between those badges of what was awarded or sold outright-how did they skirt the rules? It didnt matter to them which was which-why did it matter to Iron Crosses and wound badges?

Not busting your chops Gordon...just trying to understand!

[Gordon Williamson]

Mark you are quite right that there is little or no difference in quality. In many cases the commercial copy will be better quality. For instance the official award F&BL U-Boat badge has a cheap needle pin, the L/56 marked LDO commercial piece has a good quality wide Iron Cross type pin.
Made on the same tooling, really only the marking differentiates between them.
I think the word copy means just that - it was an exact copy of the award piece, not inferior, (and often superior). The word is not used in any derogatory sense. The only difference is that one was bought, the other awarded.

I know there are far more questions than answers in this subject. There has never really been a good explanation as to why firms like Schwerin seemed able to flout the rules which were quite clearly set out. Perhaps those classified as Orders and Decorations were treated with firmer control than war badges. Luft pieces are maybe different as they were in the main qualification badges, not awards.

The purpose of the LDO was just to regulate and control the market in retail awards by licensing the production and quality assuring the product.
For me its simply a matter of personal preference. I would much rather have a medal or badge that was the soldiers actual award piece, not something that was simply bought over the counter. In some cases of course, i.e. unmarked pieces, one can never be 100% sure as not all LDO licensed companies always marked everything (there are unmarked screwback EKs out there and these were only ever available as commercial pieces so you can always be sure of these, but with pinbacks its another matter).
With LDO marked pieces however, they were only ever intended for the retail market so in general I avoid them.

[VonLuger]

great thread

This is like 'the Iron Cross 1939 part II' Gordon sinced you touched on the subject on last response-Unmarked EK I's pinback , award or purchase- if the case of issue doesnt have a LDO logo is it an award? are all unmarked awarded..we assume that they are made pre-1941, but is that again a myth?--you said you wouldnt own a LDO EKI how about a unmarked EKI...also if you did own a LDO EKI screwback would you prefer the L/ or the L without the (/) and vaulted vs flat...why do you think the major dealers charge so much for screwbacks vs pinback and I wont even mention the schinkleform....ok I did-address these if you have the time Thank You Again

[James Clark]

This is very good - interesting and informative. The fact that period manufacturers referred to "copies" and "reproductions" suggests that those strange stamps saying "Original" on some cases/packets (I can remember seeing at least an EKII Spange carton with this) probably indicated official award pieces (which is what I imagined but didn't know for sure).

[Was that crashing noise I just heard the bottom falling out of the market in maker-marked awards?]

[Gordon Williamson]

The rules were quite specific that a retail award must be sold in the appropriate case/carton with the LDO logo. Again, its impossible to say categorically that no LDO piece was ever sold in an unmarked case, but in the unlikely event that I wanted to add a cased LDO marked EK to my collection, I'd expect the case to be marked.

There is no real way of knowing whether an unmarked pinback EK1 was made as an official award or a retail piece. Given that not everyone will have bought extra examples, there will statistically be more official awards than retail copies amongst the unmarked pinbacks.
I'd have no preference as far as screwbacks are concerned, flat or vaulted. I'd probably lean towards flat as that is the regulation form, vaulted being prohibited. Probably the reason for the higher price is simply a matter of supply and demand. Screwbacks were an extra cost option so there are less of them around.

[Mark S.]

Are these policies reflected in groups you have seen? As in one Präsidialkanzlei marked cross among other LDO marked ones from the same man?

What about those fancy colored "jeweler" boxes, how did these factor into the equation? Why no LDO Infantry Assault Badge boxes, for instance, when there exsists LDO marked badges?

[Gordon Williamson]

I have never had a documented grouping with mixed LDO/PK pieces. That doesn't really prove much as there is no way of knowing when pieces were added the the grouping, pieces replaced etc.

Not every badge was designated as having a box, the rules only specified that the packaging should have the LDO logo, so paper bags were perfectly acceptable but should have the LDO logo, as of course many do.

Not sure what jeweller boxes are being referred to here. If it is the little red/green/blue cartons with the push-out tray, these are mentioned in the regs. Some have specific colours, gray seems to have been the "official" colour for the EK2 Spange.

[Luftm40]

GREAT topic! Regarding Luft badges, you also have to keep in mind that many of them pre-date the war, when there were fewer types and quantities of things to manage. It was customary then for firms to stamp their names into their products (eg Imperial flight badges). I have always felt that when the war started, there must have been an explosion of activity wrt badges and medals. All of a sudden you have new awards being created and millions of people qualifying for them. I think the LdO and various numbering systems were a way for the government to come to grips with this and keep track of it. I also think they must have had a real problem with cheap knock off copies of the various awards offered for sale over the counter. Unauthorized variations, poor quality etc. I seem to even remember a period blurb somewhere about a completely unauthorized Poland campaign medal that some firm had produced. This kind of stuff was probably the real impetus for the LdO. If true, makes you wonder where those cheap period copies are today? Perhaps they are labeled as fakes. I have two groups w/ L marked EK1s in them. One to an RKT, the other to a DKiG winner. Both groups were acquired from the owner while they were still living. In both cases, the awardee stated that the EK1 was his wartime piece. Take that for what it is worth, but both crosses are certainly original (Both are L/11s, one is mint/cased, the other obviously worn). These could have been awarded or bought over the counter...or even post war additions (I doubt it though given the provenance) I don't find that too odd, as I myself have numerous copies of my various badges and medals that I purchased at the exchange, including one SEAL trident (my avatar) that I had made by a jeweller in Thailand. I also think it is possible that, since the awards themselves were in most cases identical, firms needing to fill shortfalls in a government contract may have provided L marked items to the military, especially later in the war when most German cities were in ruins. This may also account for double marked items...originally produced for the private purchase market, but recycled as a government contract piece There is just no way to know for sure. Interesting topic though!

[Sonderkommando]

WW2 made Imperial EK1

I have read this thread with great interest and have a question to add. I have seen a couple of Third Reich made Imperial EK1's with a PK number on them and am led to believe that these are not correct, however in Gordons previous statement he mentions that a soldier could order a replacement cross through the Präsidialkanzlei at no cost. My question is, if a soldier lost his Imperial EK1 and ordered a replacement through the Präsidialkanzlei, would this cross logically be marked with a PK number? Since it is supplied to the Präsidialkanzlei for issue as a replacement cross free of charge, I would think that it makes sense that they are marked with a PK number and therefore not LDO marked or postwar copies.
Opinions would be really appreciated.

Cheers,
Brett

[Frank Heukemes]

Interesting facts and discussion but I for one do not see any differences in the "coolness", "sexiness" or "honour" factors between Präsidialkanzlei or LDO marked awards.

If a soldier (or in this case let´s say officer) wanted to have two or more awards for several of his uniforms, what would make the LDO purchased item less special than the Präsidialkanzlei one? Important is that he had to "earn" the medal. The deed is important, awards are just metal and one is just as good as the other one. I think they are all great!

Cheers, Frank

[David R.]

I agree with Frank H. If a person needed a replacement or extra award why would it be of less value as the original? He still had to earn it. I'm glad to be able to get any of them! I'm sure they may have felt the one awarded to them was more speical ,but as a collector and not knowing were 99.9% of them came from why should we care? A traceable award should and will bring more money but the others are not junk or fakes because the were extra or LDO marked! If that were the case then most of us have a lot of high priced junk locked up at home. This is Just my two cents worth
David R.

[Gordon Williamson]

No one is suggesting that LDO awards are intrinsically worth less than official awards. Its purely a matter of personal choice, but whatever way you look at it there IS a difference. One was made to be sold over the counter at a retailer, and of course the right to buy it had to be earned, that is not in dispute, and the other was made as an official award piece.

If it doesn't make a difference to you and you are content with either/ both, then thats fine -I'm sure you and your LDO pieces will be very happy together.
To me there is very much a difference between the piece a soldier was awarded for deeds in battle and a piece he merely bought over the counter (the fact that he earned the right to buy it notwithstanding), so for me, generally I know what I'd spend my hard earned cash on, what others spend theirs on is their business.
Personal choice - end of story.

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

This has been an impressive thread so far with some great information! Gordon always turns up great info which personally I would have no way of obtaining!

My personal preference is for nicely worn examples and my collection includes PK marked, LDO marked and unmarked examples, pinbacks and screwbacks (LDO marked only of course). They all have obvious genuine wear, they have "been there and done that". The LDO examples may have been privately purchased by definition, but some of them saw heavy action (my L/11 especially, which is now "S" shaped!). For me, the marking is nowhere near as important as the history a genuinely worn example might represent. A well worn LDO marked example has much more value to me than a mint PK marked example.

And now for an exception? I once owned (and really regret selling) a boxed EK2 set ("half-case" using the definition). The set came via a US soldier who was stationed in Germany and was given the set by the family of the German veteran (name unknown). The cross and the case were both marked for Alois Rettenmaier (sp). The thing is, the cross was PK marked but the case had the LDO logo and the LDO ink mark underneath! How does that fit into regulations?

Regards
Mike K

[Sonderkommando]

Hi Mike,
Maybe the receipient purchased an LDO cross and case, and put his award cross in the case and wore the LDO marked cross. Just a thought.
Anybody have any ideas as to whether a PK marked Imperial EK1 (Third Reich manufacture) would be correct based on my question above? I really would like to hear some thoughts on this.

Cheers,
Brett