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    The LDO and its marks

    Browsing through some posts it seems that there is still a degree of confusion over the marking system and who was responsible for what. The following may be of interest. (I should point out here that what I am including here is factual information from original period regulations and publications, and not just my own theorising)

    The LDO

    The origins of the LDO lay in a meeting held at the Präsidialkanzlei where it was decreed that in order to maintain the quality and thus the prestige of military awards and decorations, their manufacture was to be controlled and licensed.
    A subsequent meeting held in the Russischer Hof Hotel in Berlin on 15 July 1940 chaired by Dr Doehle and representatives from the orders manufacturing industry formally established the LDO as the central organisation for the control of the manufacture of awards for private retail. The address of the LDO was
    Leistungsgemeinschaft der Deutschen Ordenshersteller, 27 Körnerstrasse, Hagen-Westf. (Later moved to Eugen Richter Strasse 6)

    A further notice on 1 November 1940 from the Präsidialkanzlei publicised the fact that the manufacture of orders and decorations for the private retail market was permitted only by Licensed firms.

    Firms who failed to follow regulations could be and indeed on occasion did have their manufacturing licenses withdrawn (Petz and Lorenz and Otto Schickle of Pforzheim being two examples).

    The actual LDO numbering was introduced on 1 March 1941 (ref. Uniformen Markt, 1.3.41) and required all awards from that date to be marked with the manufacturers LDO code. Regulations specified where each type of award was to be marked, though these seem to have been often ignore or misunderstood. Positions were

    On one-sided awards – centre lower reverse

    On two sided crosses – on the ring

    On two sided stamped orders and medals on the bottom edge

    Indeed you can find many originals where this rule fits precisely, but also many others where it doesn’t.

    The regulations also covered the packaging in which the awards were supplied. These were to be clearly marked with the LDO logo and the underside of the case/carton was to have the manufacturers LDO number ink-stamped.

    As far as Iron Crosses were concerned the following were specified.

    “Full Case” (i.e. the good quality case with hinge, press stud etc).
    Grand Cross, Knights Cross, Oakleaves, EK1, EK1 Spange.

    “Half Case” (i.e. the cheaper type with paper hinge and no press stud)
    EK2

    “Carton” (i.e. the matchbox type with push out tray) in Gray
    EK2 Spange.

    Note that the regulations specify a case with LDO logo for the Grand Cross, RK and Oakleaves. It is well known that many wartime orders were not fully complied with, but, despite the fact that many have doubted the originality of RK or Oaks cases with the LDO monogram, original orders specified that these MUST be used for not only the RK and Oaks but the Grand Cross, not only that these did exist but that the Grand Cross was available for commercial retail sales.
    The LDO was NOT responsible for awards supplied to the military EVER, only for private retail pieces. This is important. Comments are often made on the quality of awards such as “the LDO would never have allowed something like this to go out”.
    Frankly, if the manufacturer supplied a Panzer Assault Badge in day-glo orange to the Präsidialkanzlei, the LDO couldn’t do a thing about it. Only the Präsidialkanzlei was responsible for official award pieces, the LDO only for restrikes/copies.

    Even at the time (Uniformen Markt Issue 9, 1 May 1942) Dr. Dohle felt it necessary to publish an announcement making it clear the restrictions on the LDOs authority.

    “………..the LDO is ONLY responsible for the manufacture and quality of orders etc FOR PRIVATE RETAIL BUSINESS. Orders made through the Präsidialkanzlei for awards, and all associated technical matters are NOT to be dealt with by the LDO………….”




    To sum up,

    At the top of the tree sat the Ordenskanzlei, part of the Präsidialkanzlei des Führers (The Orders Office of Hitlers Chancellory). This alone had direct authority for the manufacture of all official awards under the end of the war, and authority over private manufacture until this was delegated to the LDO in 1940.

    The LDO was a subordinate body of the Präsidialkanzlei, established to control orders and decorations made as restrikes/copies for the private retail market ONLY.

    Various notices were posted in, initially Schwert und Spaten. Here is an early cover of this publication.




    And Uniformen-Markt



    These were later amalgamated into Deutsche Uniformen Zeitschrift



    In terms of official awards, in 1944 it was decided that in order to maintain uniformity in design and quality, one single firm would be designated to do all the development work on new war badges. This was C E Juncker of Berlin. All other firms wishing to manufacture a particular war badge had to order their dies from Juncker





    Original period publications such as these are by far the best source of information and they are an absolute goldmine of facts rather than theory and facts which can give huge clues as to why some anomalies exist. For instance, ever wondered why the odd screwback EK turns up with the securing prong at the bottom when most are at the top ?

    This announcement was posted in June 1941




    This is the announcement authorising the manufacture of screwback EK1s which had been made previously of course but were subsequently prohibited. Note that the style shown is the one most commonly encountered and is described as the "vorschriftsmässigen Probe", or the official authorised prototype.
    What isn't too clear in this rather grainy photocopy, is that the prong is at the bottom and the makers mark at the top. On 15 June, a small notice appeared stating that a printing error had led to the photo appearing upside down.

    An official notice shows the authorised prototype with the prong at the bottom rather than the top, corrected within days. A small number of EK1s seem to have been made with the retaining prong at the bottom rather than the top. These are the facts - make of them what you will, but two plus two on this occasion, backed by factual period information, probably does make four, and these anomalies are the result of a printing error in the official proclamation.

    #2
    Gordon,

    Is it true that if a recipient of an award lost it, or it broke due to faulty workmanship or quality, he could produce his award document/ pay book with the award enetered in it, and any LDO 'retailer' would issue a replacement free of charge?

    Also a recipient could buy as many duplicate awards as he wanted from a retailer as long as he was entutled to that award?

    Allan
    Looking for information on RKT KARL HUBER
    Stoßtruppführer AufKlAbt 20 (mot.)

    'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'

    Comment


      #3
      Gordon Here is a screw back case that was in question because of the ink stamped L/55 on the back , In glad you brought this up! Thanks Gordon
      David R.
      Attached Files

      Comment


        #4
        Very good, informative topic. Thank you, Gordon.

        Prosper Keating

        Comment


          #5
          What about dual marked crosses, with both a Präsidialkanzlei and a LDO number? Any ideas?

          I am curious about the LDO warranty as well. How did this play out?

          Accidentally offending people on the internet since 1997

          Comment


            #6
            LDO and questions

            Hello,


            very informative but you mention the magazine " Schwert und Spaten ", I have asked about this mag. several times before but nobody ever responded towards it, etc .... and it seems it is time to ask once again afetr it.

            * Are there still original issues in collections over the world ?
            * howmany where produced during a year ?

            Im very curious to see a actual issue as untill now every person I have questioned about it always denyed they had the mag. etc ... etc ... so please help us out here and shed some light on this matter ( as im really sure that a persons who has the knowledge of the inside of these mags. has a hell of a advantage towards otehr collectors in regards towards construction, metals used, restrictions, etc ... etc ... )

            Cordial greetings,
            my collectionfield : German glider pilots


            http://users.skynet.be/lw-glider/

            Comment


              #7
              Very interesting and informative, Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us!

              I am currently making article on Finnish Collectors magazine on German fakes and I was happy to read this first!¨

              Jani

              Gordon is my
              - Military historian and dealer from Finland.
              - Collecting Finnish awards, German EK1's 1939, KVK1's w/o swords and Tirolian shooting badges.
              I still need EK1's L/14 Screwback and Pinback.

              Comment


                #8
                There are plemty of copies of such peroidcals around.Those who have them tend to be very protective of the info. had the good fortune to be provided with numerous cutting by my German friends Peter Groch of Berlin and more recently Detlev Niemann.

                During the Third Reich period anyone who had lost their award could obtain a free replacement through the Präsidialkanzlei or buy one at their own expense via the LDO, these were in the terminology of the time referred to as Copies , Replicas or Restrikes (i.e.LDO marked pieces). How many recipients would wish to pay for an over the counter copy when they could obtain an official relacement free? LDO pieces were considered restrikes, copies or replicas, not proper awards. Original period manufacturers catalogues attest to this

                As far as dual marked crosses are concerned, as the LDO marks predate the Präsidialkanzlei marks, I can only assume that these were initially LDO marked then had the PK number added when they were added to the PK official stocks, but that is conjecture.

                David. R, the markings on your case look perfectly textbook.I have no problems with it at all. Colour of ink used to make the stamps irrelevant. Personally, I don't like or have any intertest in LDO marked pieces ( I wouldn't have an L/12 marked KC in my collection for example, not would I have a screwback EK or any other L/ marked piece ), but an awful lot of BS is talked about the LDO and its marks and what is "good" or otherwise .

                Personally I have only an interest in official award pieces, no items that someone could buy over the counter.
                By the way, wartime regulation did allow for "collector" licenses available through official channels, after relevant security checks etc, so even in the 40s there were collectos of 3rd Reich awards!!!

                Comment


                  #9
                  I should have made it clear that some high grade awards , especially the RK and the Oakleaves etc made and marked for retail sale were ordered to be handed in to the Präsidialkanzlei stocks and therafter were aused as official award pieces. This however did not apply to lower grade awards i,e, LDO marked pieces are retail restrikes/copies NOT official awards.

                  Sorry if I sound as if I am on an anti-LDO marked crusade, but personally I wouldn't have an LDO marked piece in my collection (apart from my real passion - U-Boat badges, HINT- I'll take ANY of them). I'd rather have an official award Wound Badge in Black earned in the field of battle than an L/12 marked EK1 bought over the counter in a shop.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Hi Gordon. Thank you. That is good information, but it seems we are taking a giant leap from the information provided here to saying that no LDO awards (other than a few high grade awards) were ever officially issued. Granted, the purpose of the LDO awards was for retail…but can we assume from the information provided that none were ever issued?

                    Was there something in policy that said the Präsidialkanzlei could not issue an award with an LDO stamp on it? And if they could issue an LDO award for the higher awards, then why not for others?

                    It would seem to me that if the original purpose of the LDO was to "maintain the quality and thus the prestige of military awards and decorations”, then why couldn’t those awards be issued by the Präsidialkanzlei, especially those awards that were the same high quality as required for issue. In many cases I would think that the retail awards were EXACTLY the same as those made for issue because it would be much less expensive to use the same dies and manufacturing techniques.

                    You are possibly quite right in your assertions, but I think it would be good to see something in the Präsidialkanzlei policy that actually precluded them from issuing LDO marked awards before we assume that they never did. Was there such a policy or regulation?
                    Visit my Badge Collection: http://lbmilitaria.homestead.com/home.html

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Let me clarify:
                      I am not saying that LDO stamped awards WERE in fact issued...
                      ..I am stating that I'm not sure we have enough information to state that they WERE NOT ever issued.
                      Visit my Badge Collection: http://lbmilitaria.homestead.com/home.html

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Anything is possible, and indeed it is known that some LDO marked pieces were officially issued, specifically the Knights Cross, the Oakleaves, the Swords etc where pieces had been marked for the retail market and were ordered to be surrendered to the Präsidialkanzlei when the retail sale of such pieces was prohibited and these then effectively became official award pieces, though LDO marked.

                        As a general rule however, certainly with lower awards, I personally don't believe that any LDO marked pieces were ever officially awarded. It is clear that the LDo was fairly officious in the sense that firms did have their licenses revoked for failing to follow the rules. The rules and regulations set out by the LDO clearly and specifically relate to commercial retail restrikes/copies The Chancellory even went to the trouble of publishing an announcement clarifying the fact that the LDO had nothing to do with official awards and no regulatory authority over them.

                        Why would the authorities order up commercial copies at commercial rates when they had firms who were specifically contracted to supply them with the official regulation item ?
                        Seems clear to me from the occasional double marked pieces like the L/16 4 and L/52 20 marked EK1s that when the few manufacturers who had licenses to produce copies as well as contracts to supply the formal awards, used components which had been marked up for commercial use they then added the Präsidialkanzlei mark to show that it was now a formal award.

                        Use of straight unaltered LDO marked commercial copies as formal award pieces on a significant scale, other than the small numbers of RK, Oaks etc, sounds extremely doubtful to me.

                        I'm not aware of any rule or regulation specifically prohibiting the use of commercial copies as award pieces but have to say the argument that lack of a specific prohibition as evidence that something may have been permitted is a bit dodgy.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          This puts a new perspective on collecting awards, not to mention potential market price impact. This may be more appropriate in the Imperial Forum, but while we're on the subject....

                          If LDO pieces should be considered restrikes, copies, or even period collectibles, would the same logic apply to jeweler marked Imperial 1914 Iron Crosses? We know that KO was (one of?) the official manufacturers of EK's, but would say a KAG or Meybauer EK be considered a copy made only for private purchase? If so, who were the government suppliers of issue 1914 crosses besides KO?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            "...copy made only for private purchase?" The operative word here is "only".

                            Was the purpose of the LDO numbering system to ensure that LDO marked pieces could only be sold in a retail market?...

                            ...or to ensure that the quality of LDO marked pieces met the same high standards for issue pieces as set forth by the Präsidialkanzlei?

                            I would argue for the latter case, and that the Präsidialkanzlei would have no reason to not issue an LDO marked piece that had met the standards that it had set forth for an issued piece.

                            PS...This is a great topic that crosses over into other collecting areas.
                            Visit my Badge Collection: http://lbmilitaria.homestead.com/home.html

                            Comment


                              #15
                              As an interesting addition to this, collecting medals and awards was recognised as a ligitimate interest and collectors could apply to the Präsidialkanzlei for a license which would allow them to purchase medals and decorations via retail outlets. How widespread this was I don't know, but regulations did allow for it.

                              The definition of LDO pieces as copies/replicas/restrikes/ reproductions is what was used at the time. The wartime Steinhauer catalogue specifically mentions that the firm uses the mark L/16 on its copies/reproductions.
                              One more reason why, apart from the RK etc already mentioned, I personally don't believe LDO pieces were ever officially awarded- I can't see the government awarding its soldiers what were marked up as "reproductions" or "copies". However the collector market views LDO pieces now, and most are indeed as good or better than the official awards, at the time they were classed as copies.

                              There is no mention in any of the original period documentation regardng comparing the quality of retail copies and official awards, but there is mention of the disquiet felt over the "free for all" retail market where just about anybody and his brother were making and selling awards and the LDO was specifically formed to control the manufacture of retail sales pieces.
                              If someone wants to believe an LDO piece was officially awarded then they are at perfect liberty to do so, but it is pure conjecture with, as far as I can see, not a single shred of evidence to support it.
                              I think the bottom line is that even if a few LDO pieces did find their way into official stocks and were awarded, the overwhelming majority of any LDO marked pieces in existence will simply have been bought over the counter, not awarded.
                              Last edited by Gordon Williamson; 07-14-2003, 10:27 AM.

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