Three EK1's by L/11 Wilhelm Deumer

[Luft62]

Hopefully this is the most appropriate forum for this posting.
I hadn't really noticed the similarity between three of my EK1's - two of which I received only recently.
The three of them are all marked L/11 under the clasp - the "L/11" being enclosed inside a box.

They are not all pre-1945 "1939" editions though, but are:

WW1 EK1 of the type made post 1939.
WW2 EK1 - 1939 to 1945 made.
WW2 EK1 - 1957 re-issue type.

I have a couple of questions though, Did Deumer make EK1's during WW1?
Has anybody else out there got another similar group of EK1's by another maker?

Here's the pic (first attempt at adding an attachment - fingers crossed!) -

[JOHN VD HEIJDEN]

re

Hello Luft62
I think you wrong about the first piece(WW1)
this one has the same size as a ww2 piece

so IMO that piece is produced in the war year,s (39-45) nothing uncommon at all


very very nice also three litlle brother,s
on a row just


greeting,s Johnny

[Luft62]

Hi Johnny,
I said in my post that the WW1 EK1 is of the type produced after 1939 (during WW2). That is why I asked if anybody knows if Deumer actually produced WW1 EK1s during the First World War.
My favourite type of EK1's is of the WW1 type and not the larger WW2 type - I would love to be able to obtain a Deumer made EK1 of pre-1919 manufacture! (if they made them, that is!)
That would really complete the set!

Is Deumer still in business?
If so, what do they produce these days?

[JOHN VD HEIJDEN]

re

Yes indeed mine mistake

I read some post,s on the imperial form
I saw that Deumer made hinddenburg crosses

i didn,t read anything about EK,s but maybe it is better
to ask your qeustion on the Imperial german thread


regards Johnny

[George Stimson]

That's a great set of L/11s!

[meriksson]

Wow a very nice set off 3
Mikael

[Sonderkommando]

Three very nice crosses, but this thread raises some interesting questions.
First of all, for the '57 cross to be marked "L/11", were "L" numbers actually used on awards after 1945?
Second, if they were used after '45, it is interesting to note that the construction of the '57 cross is identical to its wartime counterparts, with the same pin, half round stock "c" clasp, and frame die characteristics and markings.

This raises the question of repro "L/11" crosses being made in at least 1957. Note that the frame has no beading flaws in it in 1957 yet supposed wartime L/11's have been observed with fairly bad flaws to the beading! This suggests to me that the L/11 marked crosses with the beading flaw were made at least after 1957 on the original dies that were starting to deteriorate.

If "L" numbers weren't used after 1945 then we are looking at an un-detectable fake L/11 with the simple addition of a nazi centre added when it was constructed!

Anyone care to add some comments?

Cheers,
Brett

[George Stimson]

Brett,

Well, I think you're right. A piece made of totally wartime components after 1945 would be indistinguishable from an "original," and it would be the "perfect fake."

[Luft62]

Hi Brett,
It is my understanding that these '57 EK1s were made by Deumer using left over parts from WW2 and that LDO numbers were certainly not continued to be used by any of the manufacturers as the LDO ceased to exist post-May 1945.

I have seen a couple of other '57 type EK1s with "4" on the pin and also have heard of one with "L/12" but have not actually seen this one myself.

Deumer seems to have been quite a prolific maker of EK1s and I would not be surprised if they had a large amount of parts left over at the end of the war. The announcement of the '57 type EK1s was probably just what they needed to get rid of these old parts.

This explanation would discount the theory that there are un-detectable "fake" L/11 EK1s around - although if Deumer had continued to produce WW2 EK1s post May '45 who, other than the employees of Deumer are to know?

It doesn't actually make them "fake", just "originals of post-war production" - not a nice thought for those with supposidly pre-May '45 made "L/11" EK1s in their collections!

Personally, I hope the "leftover spare parts" explanation is the correct one.

[Sonderkommando]

Hi George and Tim,
My main concern was with nazi EK's with the flawed beading. It makes sense that Duemer used leftover stock for his '57 crosses but just an interesting thought that he had all these frames with no flaws in stock yet produced nazi EK's with the flawed beading during the war.


Cheers,
Brett

[Luft62]

Hi Brett and George,

I wasn't aware of L/11 EK1s with flawed beading but could this not have occured during wartime production with new dies then being made and used - all pre-May 1945?

This would mean those L/11 EK1s with the flawed beading would still be of genuine pre-May '45 production.

But...

These dies could still have been available after the end of the war - which would mean that the "flawless" WW2 EK1s could have still been of post May-1945 production.

That is, if Deumer did such a thing!

Although I still think it most likely that they were simply left over parts that were used for the '57 type crosses.

Unless we can find an ex-employee of Deumer I guess we will never know!

[Luftm40]

I have seen the L/11 57 EK1s, and always believed they were made from left-over parts. BUT, if Deumer made versions w/ swastikas on the sly alongside their denazified types, collectors have a real problem. S&L did this I believe. I have encountered at least 2 post-war assembled 4 marked SL EK1s. These were identical to the wartime type, except the construction was very shoddy. Also the hinge was different if I remember. I don't know whether they were assembled by SL, or by someone else piecing togther spare parts after SL sold their wartime stocks. This theory would also cast doubt on the L/11 marked Imperial EK1 pictured in the thread. It may very well be from the 57 era too, as there were no restriction placed on the production of Imperial items after WWII. Honestly, I have always avoided L/11 EK1s because of these possibilities. I have 2 in my collection, but they are in groupings and I'm pretty certain of the provenance.

[Luft62]

Hi Andy,

I had thought of that regarding the Imperial EK1 and wondered if perhaps it is of post WW2 (by Deumer) manufacture. As I have seen S&L made WW1 type EK1s made post '57 but these have all had a needle type pin.
In regards to the WW2 EK1 I am certain of its provenance.

Both the Imperial and '57 EK1s have silver plated frames - the WW2 one does not, although it may have but was worn by its owner for some time.
Did WW2 (define pre-May-1945 manufacture) L/11 EK1s come with silver plated frames?

[Sonderkommando]

Hi Tim,
Does your '57 cross, your Imperial style cross and your nazi cross have the same die characteristics to the frame?
Using the theory that Duemer had another set of dies made during the war, we should see two different sets of die characteristics to Duemer produced crosses as it would be impossible to make two sets of dies identicle. (if it were possible, we would see endless fake L/12 Knights Crosses with the cross hatching to the beading!!!)
If there is no differences to the die characteristics to all the L/11 marked EK's, then why is there (supposed) wartime produced L/11 EK's with the beading flaws and then '57 crosses without it?
I seriously doubt that Duemer had huge stocks of good frames sitting there while he pumped out hundreds of EK's with flawed frames.
You have to remember that the LDO regulations stated that any product that was faulty had to be replaced free of charge, so it doesn't make good business sense for Duemer to make his EK's using faulty frames while he had stockpiles of good ones left sitting there after the war.
Very interesting though!

Cheers,
Brett

[Luft62]

Hi Brett,

At just a quick check with a magnifier it would appear that the three crosses have different die characteristics.
I will have to check more carefully tomorrow (been at work since 8pm this evening).

The WW1 type EK1 is heavily vaulted though - I am not sure how they did this, would this indicate a different die in any case?

I know that WW2 type crosses were not to be sold vaulted, but apparently this did not apply to WW1 type crosses produced during WW2 (or am I opening another can of worms with this?).