Originally posted by Douglas 5
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Robert
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And this is consistant with all '6'-marked cores, and all 2nd pattern S&L cores. IMO, they are different cores. But, we're open for discussion still.
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Exspecialy the bottom 2 inside corners show a lot of traces- layer or plateau- of an old beading pattern !Comment
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If I had a S&L cross with a 2nd core , I would have taken a side by side picture to have the same conditions for comparison .
As can be seen on the last picture lighting and shadows are crutial . The flange in spots on the top arms of the Swastika seams to be misssing even though it is there . As I have the last picture up the Zimmermann Swastika has its own symetry with the end tips being a tad shorter than the sides, the tip of the left arm is slightly slanted .
DouglasComment
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Douglas,
I have (8) 2nd pattern S&L's in front of me, not counting my EKI's, and (3) '6' Zimmermanns. The symetrically perfect swasis of the S&L's are obvious, in every S&L. The Zimmermann's have a lower swasi, and all have slightly wider arms are they enter the center area. The S&L swasis are taller also. I'm convinced the Zimmermanns are a different core.
Shown here the height of the Zimmermann swasi...
RobertComment
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and the S&L 2nd pattern...Comment
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In a lot of ways the '6' Zimmermann swasis look like the '65', tapering as the arms extend outward, even shallower as they reach their limit...
Edit: There was some confusion on this core. It is a '6' Zimmermann, not a '65'.
RobertLast edited by robert pierce; 08-14-2008, 11:31 AM.Comment
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This side view is interesting as is shows proportionatly what has happend between the Zimmerman core and re-worked beading .
The core is only an averange depth strike to start with , but with the raised new bead crown is way down there ! About 1/2 the overall bead height .
DouglasComment
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Post 64 :
Is the date the thin date and does that one have the a re-worked frame die ?
Hmm ... 3 cores maybe ???
DouglasComment
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Post 66 ;
Is that a 65 core ? It has just about no outside flange on the Swastika at all . A lot more flange taper on the inside .
DouglasComment
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Both posts #64 & 66 are '6' Zimmermanns. Post #64 is not the thin date core. None of the thin date cores, that I have seen, have been stamped '6'.
Edit: And, no, post #64 is not a reworked frame.
RobertComment
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Got it Robert .
The simularty to cores to the S&L IMO is cotributable to S&L making and supplying cores/parts? to other EK makers as a lot of frame and cores of maker marked EK suppliers with mainly with numbers starting approx #80 up into the 100's show very close S&L features . The same engraver making more dies each time -be it frames and or cores- will make 'almost' identical dies that vary a bit only each time . Juncker did something simular it seams .
DouglasComment
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Unfortunately this theory cannot be proven, therefore it is my opinion that Zimmermann probably made their own cores for their crosses. Still, I have no idea where the new thin date cores derived. I have gone cross-crazy trying to match it to another. It remains a mystery, to me anyway.Originally posted by Douglas 5 View Post
Robert
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Douglas,
In all respect to your deep studies regarding an individual engraver making frame dies for differing EK manufacturers, I understand where you would consider this being a possibility in this case as well. I speak of Juncker and W&L inparticular. And, I know of many frames above #100 that look nearly identical to one another. Still, unless we have more to tie Zimmermann to S&L regarding core similarities I feel to stay with my personal opinions on this. I see perfectly well your work tying the frames, original and reworked, together. That was an excellent work.
My respects to you, Douglas
RobertComment
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Thanks Robert :
Some of the thanks should go to the crosses too . They are gleaming at us trying to get our attention . They incorporate a lot of true facts they are trying to telling us ! The documents or writen evidence may but most likely does not exist anymore . Now 65 or 4 does not matter too much , it is an outside source .
Zimmermen Crosses show regular and re-worked frames . The likelyhood is great - of them using/obtaining cores from another source . Or having dies made by S&L or 65 , the closeness of features would support this . The finger prints of the engraver ! Zimmerman did use a frame die that originaly belonged to some one else . Aditionaly this corresponds to the time frame of cross shortages and the call for increased production amongst dwindling available supplies .
Now there is more to this re-worked frame !
The frame was used and belonged to somebody prior to them using it ....? Who now .
Many hours of comparing and I found an answer .
I was hoping others with these re-worked crosses would have discovered the original maker of the die by examining the inside corner beading - more exactly the remaining traces there of , depending on wear and condition of their cross .
On my example it was not that difficult others many have a tough time at it . I will pause to to see if others find it .
In the mean time ; who has a cross with a loose core ?
DouglasComment
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Here is probably one of the earliest unmarked but re-worked Zimmerman EK2 that has a silver plated frame still , ... next to a 6. marked one .
DouglasComment
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