PKZ numbers on DKIG/DKIS

[John R.]

"Hi guys, with some interesting debate going on re: PKZ numbers on RKs, I thought it might be beneficial to get some discussion on EK1 and EK2 that have solid provenance from the vet himself or family. I am looking for crosses with PKZ numbers and the dates of awarding roughly based on the soldiers award documents. With these pieces much more common than RKs or DKiGs we should be able to get a rough idea when the PKZ numbers came into use with the EK1 and EK2. I look forward to any examples that will be posted. thanks, Jeff"

To follow this idea up, I thought I would ask the same question concerning DKIG/DKIS. No images of the award or documents are necessary. Just if you feel your attributed award is probably the one that went with the document is good enough.

I will start. I have seen a KM DKIG doc dated 2 April 1944 with a Deschler "1" award. Very solid if not 100% provenance.

Looking forward to any other input. This information has nothing to do with the PKZ timeline of the RK put forth by Dietrich which to me makes perfect sense and I agree with.

It only has to do with the DKIG/S. I just want to be clear on this.

John

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[Luftm40]

I have the following in groups that have excellent and in some cases, first hand provenance:

Luftwaffe fighter pilot RKT, DKig award date 27/05/42: Unmarked Deschler

Luftwaffe fighter pilot RKT, DKiG award date 29/09/44: 20 marked "light" Zimmerman

Luftwaffe fighter pilot OLT, DKiG award date 24/06/43: 20 marked "heavy" Zimmerman that came in the correct and original to the award case

Luftwaffe Recon pilot DKiG 17/06/43: Heavy "1" marked Deschler

Heer NCO 5/5/43: "2" marked Juncker.


Now that I see these all together, there is a pattern for the earlier, heavy PKZ marked pieces, at least among my examples..mid 1943 or so. The light one is late war (44) and the unmarked one is early (42)...hmmmm

[andrewb]

I have a DKiG mm '20', light version awarded to an Army Major in Sept, 1943. Engraved on the back with his details, it was obtained directly from the family in Germany in the late 1990's along with a copy of his military record. I have made contact with a family member confirming the provenance.

Regards,
AB.

[Flemming]

I have this MM 1 DKiG
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=184183
It should have been awarded November 10th 1942. But I can't prove that this is the actually awarded DKiG, but the guy was KIA December 31st 1943, so I do not believe it was aquired after his death, as it has his inscription on the back.

I really like this cross...hope the information can be of any help!

/Flemming

[John R.]

Thanks for the replies so far. Remember, the DKIG was instituted on 28 September 1941 and the first DKIG seem to have all been unmarked, as far as I know--so maybe until late 1942 early 1943?

Looking forward to more information as it is posted.

John

[Robert T.]

One DKIG unmarked Deschler (award document dated jan. 1942).

Thank you John, very interesting and useful thread.
__________
Robert

[Luftm40]

Really surprised this post seems to have gotten no attention...I think it is interesting and would like to see more cross types and dates. Of course not all attributions are accurate...nor are they all wrong. With enough examples we can probably figure this out.

[George Stimson]

my contribution

I wouldn't stake my life on this one, but I have a heavy "20"-marked Zimmerman DKiG that is attributed to Wolfgang Sauermann, who won his award on July 23, 1943. The attribution is based on the fact that the cross came in a medal grouping which includes Sauermann's Honor Goblet. (It also has his initials penciled on the back.)
Not rock solid, by any means, but something.

[Luftm40]

George, 1 month after mine..... Anyone else? Perhaps the PkZ numbering for the DKiG began some time in late 1942/early 1943

[John R.]

George, 1 month after mine..... Anyone else? Perhaps the PkZ numbering for the DKiG began some time in late 1942/early 1943

That is what it looks like on this "sampling"--I intend to keep this thread up at the top and hopefully we will get some more reports. I was hoping for a better response, since I think the many more members have this award, so will give it time. John

[John R.]

OK, just checked Detlev's site. He has an unsold Herr DKIG and doc at a relatively low price still for sale. Anyway, it is a "20" marked badge and the formal doc is dated 18 June 1943.

On the other side he has a KM grouping, also unsold but quite large, that has an unmarked DKIG and the formal doc is dated 10 Feb 44.

John

[George Stimson]

This isn't "Crosses" related, but I just came across a Black Wound Badge which according to the Urkunde was awarded on April 13, 1943. It has the PKZ number "32" (See http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=257648). Based on the circumstances of the rest of the group this Wound Badge is a part of, I'm fairly certain that it is correct badge for the doc.

(Less likely, provenance-wise, I also have an EK 2 marked "137" that came with a group of docs, and according to the EK 2 doc it was awarded on January 21, 1941. That one is likely switched, IMO.)

[Flemming]

Late 42 wold surely fit my MM DKiG, as I wrote earlier in this thread, mine was awarded November 10th 1942. Not rock solid provenance, but still plausibel !

George, 1 month after mine..... Anyone else? Perhaps the PkZ numbering for the DKiG began some time in late 1942/early 1943

[Flemming]

Just bringing this one to the top again, as I find it really interesting.

/Flemming

[Bob Hritz]

I have always believed the PZK numbers came into use in 1942, from the amount of German Crosses that were awarded with both Deschler, Zimmerman and Godet PZK numbers. The rarity of the LDO marked German Crosses suggests that they were for only the earliest awards, from 1941. Of course, they may have been the LDO marked private purchase pieces that further confuse matters. Still, I have never found an LDO German Cross for my collection.

I wonder if this changes the perspective on the PZK marked Knight's Crosses?

Bob Hritz