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**Black_Legion** · 12-02-2007, 05:24 AM

You are right, the person that won the right to wear the RK got the posibillity to buy one to wear on the front, one for special occasion and one my guess is to send home.
Now all RKT did that but some did.
So if there 7813 RKT, my guess is that there were more RKs than that number.

**DavidM** · 12-02-2007, 07:51 AM

Hello

As with all the awards and medals many, many more were made than ever awarded. The Knights Cross itself isn't generally considered to be rare, rather it is one of the more expensive and more desirable Third Reich awards.

I have no idea how many were made, but I reckon that I'm on safe ground in saying that it was very considerably more than the number awarded.

Regards
David

**Luftm40** · 12-02-2007, 08:15 AM

Never confuse rarity w/ desirability!..they can be two totally different things. The RK is not a rare award but IS highly desirable, hence the high prices. There were many more RKs made than what is reflected in the award statistics

**Dietrich Maerz** · 12-02-2007, 09:01 AM

I don't think that many more were made. Sure, more were made, but not in the amount of the EK1 or EK2. I do know of maybe 500 maximum all over the world. There are a lot more I do not know about but there are also a lot more than went missing at the end of the war. And a lot that are around and portrayed as real are post war productions.
One cannot say that over 7000 were awarded and maybe double the number is around without deducting what went missing for ever.

Basically Andy is right. The RK is not rare it is desirable. Especially when unissued and untouched. God knows why?

Dietrich

**Johnny R** · 12-02-2007, 09:30 AM

Number of Awards

There were many more made than awarded. People were still finding large lots of Wartime examples meaning boxed and unawarded original factory pieces in the 1960s, there also were Jewelers copies which are often viewed as fakes like many non-standard EK I's. I would not be suprised to find out that there were 15000 plus awards made by all the authorized firms alone but many of these were lost or destroyed included those issued.

**Dietrich Maerz** · 12-02-2007, 09:42 AM

There were no jewelers copies of the Knights Cross. I would love to hear more about the findings of RK's in factories....

Dietrich

**Pieter Verbruggen** · 12-02-2007, 10:58 AM

...on the number of produced KC we can only speculate.
Some recipients received only one ...others several.
A KC from a maker like S&L, K&Q or Juncker are common.
Some variants or rare makers are for some types nearly impossible to find.
If a KC can be linked to a famous person it will result in a primium price.

e.g. my favourite KC is a cross of the first award ceremony wich took place in september 1939 (13 awardees)...the value of this cross?...whatever someone want's to pay for it i'll guess...
Pieter.

PS and please forget the nonsence of "jeweler copys"...they are just copys!

**Steinar** · 12-02-2007, 11:06 AM

Im sure 1000s of KCs survived, russian soldiers probably collected these and it was probably one of the main souvenirs to find.

**Pieter Verbruggen** · 12-02-2007, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by xerox_ View Post

Im sure 1000s of KCs survived, russian soldiers probably collected these and it was probably one of the main souvenirs to find.

...how can you be sure of something you cannot know?
Pieter

**Johnny R** · 12-02-2007, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

There were no jewelers copies of the Knights Cross. I would love to hear more about the findings of RK's in factories....

Dietrich

There was an award collector in Germany named Pietsch who also was a Nomandy FJ vet. He and another collector located and bought a large number of boxed factory awards in the 1960s. They actually went to old factories and asked for any remaining WWII stocks of awards. I meet him in 1985 and at that time he still had 10 boxed RK sets, black boxes in cardboard boxes from the reported 50 or so they had bought in the 60's. He had shoe boxes full of IABs in envelopes and everything else imaginable. I do not remember which factory but it would have been in the Ruhr most likely.

Jewelers copies-I have been told by RKTS wear copies were made privately by firms as well as brass cored crosses for KM use. Hans Sturm told me copies of the award could be bought or ordered by showing documentation for reciept of the award. He was only given one issue piece and said it was common to put the oriignal in safe keeping and wear a modified EKII or a non-issue copy for field service.

**Dietrich Maerz** · 12-02-2007, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by jhodgson View Post

There was an award collector in Germany named Pietsch who also was a Nomandy FJ vet. He and another collector located and bought a large number of boxed factory awards in the 1960s. They actually went to old factories and asked for any remaining WWII stocks of awards. I meet him in 1985 and at that time he still had 10 boxed RK sets, black boxes in cardboard boxes from the reported 50 or so they had bought in the 60's. He had shoe boxes full of IABs in envelopes and everything else imaginable. I do not remember which factory but it would have been in the Ruhr most likely.

How would you know that those were genuine and made before may 1945 and not a bunch of post war S&L, made to order? Proven, by the way!

Jewelers copies-I have been told by RKTS wear copies were made privately by firms as well as brass cored crosses for KM use. Hans Sturm told me copies of the award could be bought or ordered by showing documentation for reciept of the award. He was only given one issue piece and said it was common to put the oriignal in safe keeping and wear a modified EKII or a non-issue copy for field service.

The brass for KM is complete BS and I'm so astonished how long such a myth prevailes... Sure, every RK owner could order RKs from the PKZ if he wanted to pay the price for it. But those were not jewellers copies, those were real pieces from the same licensed manufactureres.

Jewellers copy is just a better word for 'non-licensed manufacturer' at best and "fake" at worst (and mosty of the time). Past October 1941 such practice was verboten!

Dietrich

**Steinar** · 12-02-2007, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by Pieter Verbruggen View Post

...how can you be sure of something you cannot know?
Pieter

How can we be sure its destroyed?

**Leroy** · 12-02-2007, 12:04 PM

Dietrich,
May I ask two straightforward questions?
1.) Did, to your knowledge, S&L and Juncker make Oakleaves (and possibly O&S) during the war?
2.) If they did, are there ways to identify these wartime products from postwar versions?

Not looking to start a debate or fight or dispute as to whether such pieces are "official" (we all acknowlege that they are not). Are they out there or not and how can you tell the difference?

Best,
Leroy

**Dietrich Maerz** · 12-02-2007, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by Leroy View Post

1.) Did, to your knowledge, S&L and Juncker make Oakleaves (and possibly O&S) during the war?

S&L made oakleaves for sure this they shwo them in their catalog. I would think the saem is true for Juncker. There are contemporary pictures in publications (NOT of KC bearers) showing oaks which look different than the Godets.

So he answer to 1. is "Yes". BUT they never were issued any official contracts os any such piece can only be a shop/museum sample and was not officially ordered by the PKZ to be awarded. Even all private purchases went thru the PKZ and from there only Godets were issued, as far as all the paperwork, evidence and documents are concerned.

If they did, are there ways to identify these wartime products form post war productions?

I never looked into that subject since I wanted to concentrate on the real thing only. I have no idea about Juncker at all. My opinion about S&L is that it might be extremely difficult since there is no 100% proven pre-May 45 example to my knowledge. (the same applies to Juncker by the way ...)Something we have in abundance with the Godets and we therefore have something to compare with.

Dietrich

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