L/12 Oaks, Oaks and Swords

[Jeff V]

I has been perusing Dietrich's excellent book last night and today and I have a question. I do not see any information in the book on L/12 oaks and L/12 oaks and swords. I have seen a number of these, some of which look better than others. What is the current thought on these pieces? Were they made during the war? If made, private purchase only or were some issued? We know that some of the L/12 RK's were the issue pieces. best wishes,
jeff

[Harry]

Undoubtedly Juncker did make such awards during the war, but to be able to establish a set as 100% original pre 1945 nowadays is difficult as it would need to be compared and matched with a set with watertight provenance, and there lies the difficulty......

[Leroy]

Dietrich has limited his book to items he believes can be directly linked to official issue by the government.

These pieces were surely made by Juncker (and also S&L and maybe others) and were just as surely worn. Maybe we should start a thread on Oaks and Oaks & Swords we believe to be wartime made and worn BUT NOT falling into Dietrich's framework. If any of us have these from a vet, we should post them. We have all seen the postwar S&L's and their (except for the very first '57 versions) poor quality. What about other pieces that don't match the known early '57 or later versions?

What about wartime photos that may show different versions in wear (if they are clear enough)? I bet those pieces and photos are out there.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Sure were there such pieces! But they were not awarded by the PKZ. I have limited my book to official awards not including the shop displays, pre-LDO pieces and such. One can speculate about them till the cows come home. The term 'jewelers copy' has its base in just that.

I have hoped that I made that point very clear in the book....

Dietrich

[Jeff V]

Sure were there such pieces! But they were not awarded by the PKZ. I have limited my book to official awards not including the shop displays, pre-LDO pieces and such. One can speculate about them till the cows come home. The term 'jewelers copy' has its base in just that.

I have hoped that I made that point very clear in the book....

Dietrich

I would sure like to get some understanding of these pieces. I was hoping the book would provide some insight on these Juncker made oaks. If Juncker did make oaks during the war, and there is several different patterns or ways they are marked, I would like to discuss that.
Apparently it is believed that many L/12 marked oaks were made after the war. Were they made with the original dies?
I guess like Harry said the trouble is finding a set with some ironclad provenance to at least start with a benchmark. Hopefully, people that own L/12 marked oaks will post them. best wishes,
jeff

[Dietrich Maerz]

Jeff,

if I would have found one set awarded I would have included it. This was not so and ther is absolutely no indication that this was the case.

Now, a L/12 marked sword set from Juncker (or any other than Godet maker) was produced after the introduction of the swords. Right? That was about the same time the private sale was forbidden. The first set was a Godet L/50 as witnessed by the press publication.

So any L/12 marked sword set is extremely suspicios IMHO.

There is just more to it than just hope. Let's try to find hard evidence! I'm all for it!

Dietrich

[Jeff V]

Jeff,

if I would have found one set awarded I would have included it. This was not so and ther is absolutely no indication that this was the case.

Now, a L/12 marked sword set from Juncker (or any other than Godet maker) was produced after the introduction of the swords. Right? That was about the same time the private sale was forbidden. The first set was a Godet L/50 as witnessed by the press publication.

So any L/12 marked sword set is extremely suspicios IMHO.

There is just more to it than just hope. Let's try to find hard evidence! I'm all for it!

Dietrich

Thanks for the clarification Dietrich ! Hopefully those that have these pieces will post them. best wishes,
jeff

[Dave Kane]

Jeff,

if I would have found one set awarded I would have included it. This was not so and ther is absolutely no indication that this was the case.

Now, a L/12 marked sword set from Juncker (or any other than Godet maker) was produced after the introduction of the swords. Right? That was about the same time the private sale was forbidden. The first set was a Godet L/50 as witnessed by the press publication.

So any L/12 marked sword set is extremely suspicios IMHO.

There is just more to it than just hope. Let's try to find hard evidence! I'm all for it!

Dietrich

I recall that about 3 years ago we attempted to define a 'period L/12 marked set' of Oakleaves...

We ended up with FOUR different examples and each from a 'respected' dealer or author. The thread died quickly as there wasn't anywhere to go to define which of the FOUR (examples) was period, if any!

[Leroy]

Dietrich,
I think we are all very clear that you were discussing in your book ONLY the pieces which can be linked directly to official awards. I respect your decision to do this and feel that your book fully deserves the praise it is receiving. It is a wonderful work!
The inquiry now under discussion, however, is the wartime manufacture of "second" pieces, whether for direct sale to entitled individuals or for shop display. For many, such pieces will be as close as they can get (financially, at least) to the "real" pieces and, perhaps, could rise to nearly equivalent status by virtue of actually being worn in some instances.
We all know that Goering never wore a shop display piece, but a genuine
wartime made shop display piece still has very considerable collector value. In the case of the Oakleaves and even the Swords (although you are right about the nearly contemporaneous ban on private sale) there is a CHANCE that such a piece was worn. Personally, I would very much like to see such a piece, with vet provenance, attached to a real cross. Gordon's book pictures a set of S&L Oakleaves and Swords which he describes as being a vet acquired piece, attached when obtained by the vet to a real cross. (My own view is that the set pictured is more likely one of the very early 1957 sets with the "O" mark and wrongly attributed.) Nevertheless, I would like to see other sets and hear their story.
Very best wishes, and thanks,
Leroy

[mmiller]

All I can contribute are some marginal images of a Juncker set I used to own.

I'll toss them into the 'mix'.

Regards,
Mark

[Leroy]

That's a great start!

Anybody got any S&L's?