DKiG, S&L

[M. Zimmer]

How can anyone using a fuzzy photo say with certainly that the cross in question is a S&L example?

Chet

the original foto is coloured , this ne is a copy from Detlevs book. A friend has seen Rudels original awards which were shown in Rosenheim some years ago. He told that the shown cross had all attributes of a S&L. It could be possible that Rudel had more tn one maybe 3 DKs.

The cross I have in my collection is the cross of Walter Heinlein !!

[DavidM]

Hello

Here are Oberst Rudels awards in the colour photo.

Regards
David

[Dave Kane]

the original foto is coloured , this ne is a copy from Detlevs book. A friend has seen Rudels original awards which were shown in Rosenheim some years ago. He told that the shown cross had all attributes of a S&L. It could be possible that Rudel had more tn one maybe 3 DKs.

The cross I have in my collection is the cross of Walter Heinlein !!

Great! So, let's look at THAT Cross and its provenance..

[M. Zimmer]

Great! So, let's look at THAT Cross and its provenance..

Thank you David, thank you Dave

Mathias

[DavidM]

Maybe Rudel never used his dkig when he was in combat.... im sure alot of pilots didnt use this award in the air...

and, im not sure if this is correct, but i remember i read once that german soldiers couldn't wear more that 2 medals in combat, after 1942 or 41 because the award itself could be some sort of hinder... getting attached to stuff inside a plane, tank etc... its not unlogical is it?

Hello

I remember reading somewhere that the cloth versions of the DK were very popular with tank crews as the full metal version could, and did get caught up in the cramped confines of a panzer. However, I'm pretty certain that you were obliged to wear your awards, even during combat. All the photos I can find of Rudel, even just as he leaves his plane straight after a mission show a full metal version of the DK on his uniform. So I'd guess that, along with his other awards, he always wore them.

I agree with Dave Kane. Can we see or have explained the provenance for the Heinlein DKiG please. Although I don't have a wartime S&L DK in my collection, (I do have the very early 57 S&L DK though, which aside from the removal of the swastika, is pretty well identical to this one), I actually believe that S&L made DKs during the war for a very limited time, but, as with their RKs, they continued making these after May 1945. If this is true, (and I have no evidence, just a personal belief), then question becomes how do you tell a wartime produced S&L DK from a post war one?

Regards
David

[Steinar]

Rudel had only 1 KC?

[M. Zimmer]

Hello

I remember reading somewhere that the cloth versions of the DK were very popular with tank crews as the full metal version could, and did get caught up in the cramped confines of a panzer. However, I'm pretty certain that you were obliged to wear your awards, even during combat. All the photos I can find of Rudel, even just as he leaves his plane straight after a mission show a full metal version of the DK on his uniform. So I'd guess that, along with his other awards, he always wore them.

I agree with Dave Kane. Can we see or have explained the provenance for the Heinlein DKiG please. Although I don't have a wartime S&L DK in my collection, (I do have the very early 57 S&L DK though, which aside from the removal of the swastika, is pretty well identical to this one), I actually believe that S&L made DKs during the war for a very limited time, but, as with their RKs, they continued making these after May 1945. If this is true, (and I have no evidence, just a personal belief), then question becomes how do you tell a wartime produced S&L DK from a post war one?

Regards
David

I think that the most soldiers were wearing their awards in action. Concerning the DK I have an example. Wolfgang Schneeweis , nightfighter, KIA on 28.7.43 in Witebsk Russia, e hwas never found. He was wearing his cloth DKiG in action. His other DK was sent after his death to the family and is still in the family ( Deschler with engraved name. I hold it in my hands, also his posthumous awarded 65 RK ).

To Heinlein I can say that I know him personally. He lives about 40 km to me. He is - like me - member of the community of the Knights cross, German cross and EK. I hope, I will see him before Christmess and ask him to write a provenance.

Mathias

[DavidM]

Hello

I don't know how well this will fly, but I think that the silver coloured backplate behing the swastika / iron cross, (depending on whether looking at a 57 version or otherwise), is maybe the key to these DKs.

Have a look at the two photos I've posted here. To me the silver disc under the swastika and the iron cross are the same. Both show very similar machine marks across the surface and both have a slightly more shiny and less refined look about them when compared to other wartime made DKs from other manufacturers. Now look the one posted here by Mathias. The disc under the swastika appears, in my opinion, to be different to these two, and looks of better quality, colour and composition.

So, as a possible working theory, (no evidence for this, other than photos of different S&L DKs), the S&L swastika'd DKs with the same silver centre plate as the 57 versions are postwar, while the ones, (which in fairness are not ofetn encountered), with the better quality, different looking centre plates are wartime.

Please feel free to pull this apart. As I say, just a tentative theory / personal opinion based on some observations.

Regards
David

[DavidM]

Early 57 Version S&L DK

[M. Zimmer]

Early ('wartime parts') S&L DK

Its well known that S&L used after the war wartime produced parts for the democratic DK. Why should they through them away ?

Mathias

[DavidM]

Its well known that S&L used after the war wartime produced parts for the democratic DK. Why should they through them away ?

Mathias

Hello

I wrote it in that fashion as many collectors do not believe that S&L ever made the DK during the war, and as such the S&L DK, as I'm sure you are aware, is a somewhat contentious item. As I have already said, I personally believe that they did make them in the war, but not in any great quantity, and in all likelyhood made more swastika'd DKs after the war than during it. I've now edited the photo label to 'Early 57 Version S&L DK', as I missed the 57 bit off in the first place.

My question to you, and others here is, is there any mileage in my theory about the silver coloured centre plates?

Regards
David