Clearing up an urban myth about EK's in WW2

[byterock]

To quote G.I. Joe



"Hey mac!

Can trade in this Purple Heart for a pair of dry socks! Seeing as I all ready got 5 Purple Hearts and I ain't got no dry socks?"


Change the name to Fritze and the medal to ICII and that would sum up the general attitued to the ICII by your typical German soilder by the end of the war.

The funny thing is that the KC never lost the average solider's respect and it has the same standing today as it did 69+ years ago.

Other awards were universally dislike like the Fired Egg which is like more by todays collectors than your solider of 60 years ago They say it as something that a Golden Pheasant would wear.

Medals Award and Decoration say also about a culture. Big bold and plentiful boastful (USA and USSR ribbon bars), Subdued Class ridden and hard earned (The UK and Commonwealth) egalitarian spartan and traditional (Germany) , Plentiful and flashy (Italy),

[Westmark]

Good thread

[sshort]

In the book HUNTERS FROM THE SKY,I remember reading about Ramke's brigade defending the Brest harbor in 1945. I recallthat two non military dock hands were awarded the iron cross second class for unstopping the sewer lines.

[Robert P.]

In the book HUNTERS FROM THE SKY,I remember reading about Ramke's brigade defending the Brest harbor in 1945. I recallthat two non military dock hands were awarded the iron cross second class for unstopping the sewer lines.

Union members get all the benefits. Come on......

Robert

[Albert]

...Other awards were universally dislike like the Fired Egg ...

Oh no they weren't, if you are talking about the DK...

[DaveNZ]

[/B]As Berlin was falling in '45 Hitler himself decorated Hitlet Youth with EKII's, where one would think the WMCII would be in order for 'reasonable service.'

I thought those HJ boys were being decorated for destroying russian tanks with panzerfaust: surely that would deserve more than a WMCII?

IMO an EK2 seems fair enough to me.

[DaveNZ]

I dont know when the "Rot " set in but i feel it was easier to win a KC EK1 EK2 in 1945 than it was in 1939

I'd prefer to see it as that by 1945 the level of intensity and desperation of the combat on all sides of the Reich had got to such a point that more and more German soldiers were involved in situations that deserved decoration.

I dont think it got any 'easier' if you know what i mean

[Pierre]

You are absolutely right DaveNZ . A very nice pilot from the Jagdgeschwader 52 I had the opportunity to meet a coule of times didn't get his KC before his 126th air victory and finished the war with 137 without the oakleaves. Werner Mölders got the diamonds after his 94th air victory.

Pierre

[Robert P.]

I thought those HJ boys were being decorated for destroying russian tanks with panzerfaust: surely that would deserve more than a WMCII?

IMO an EK2 seems fair enough to me.

In that situation I also think they more than deserved the EKII. I didn't know this.

Robert

[Black_Legion]

I think that people do not understand the grand scale of it all. The huge armys clashing together late in the war, means that many awards will be awarded.

The German soldier in summer of 1944, had to fight on several fronts. In the autumn of 1944 the "Reich" had shrunk with less places to move the armys. Battles was more fierce with street to street fighting. The German soldier was in constant contact with her enenmys.

We can not compare figures from 1939 to 1941 with those from 1944 and on.

Peter

Well, i will give you a not so known example-The homeland war in croatia 199.0-1995.
If you joined the army in 1990-1992. you got a medal that has the year of the most fierced fights in East Slavonia(Vukovar,Nova Gradiška), but if you joined the army later you got the one without the number.
500.000 soldiers got the Homeland medal but only 200.000 fought in the bigging.

In ww2 the 369. Croatian div of wehrmecht was one of the most decorated div. in the war-They fougt in stalingrad and many wore EK1 and EK2.
they maybe weren't brave but they saw the most fierced battelground in the history.

[byterock]

To bring up the culture part of the reason for decorations,I think the Japanese were the most unique during the war.

In Japanese military tradition there are no living heroes so all of their bravery decorations were posthumous.

It was only very late in the war (45) that the first bravery decoration was given to a living solider I think it was the fighter ace Saburo Sakai only after he was unable to fly anymore.

Few collector also know that it was only after WWI that UK bravery decorations could be given posthumously except of course the VC. Orders and other 'merit~leadership' decorations were not and I think still not given posthumously.

The IC was both a Order and a decoration and was given both for 'merit-leadership' and bravery.

[Simon O.]

I'd like to add a few points.

Unlike other countries bravery decorations where they were awarded for an individuals actions, the EK series, all the way up to the RK grades could and were awarded for a unit's achievements. Both grades of EK were often awarded as a percentage to a unit or ship. In one case i recently studied a force of 625 men were allocated 60 EKII and 6 EKI for a minor operation in Sept.43 that saw little fighting and half a dozen wounded. I think it's this rewarding a unit as well as an individual that really boosts the figures.

Awarding decorations for morale purposes was common, that was particularly true for the KVKII m/S which really was a 'good boy' medal and saw a big increase in awards during 44\45. Ironically though, the KVKI was awarded far less often than the EKI.

[Thomas H]

After reading all your posts in this thread, I was thinking about the following:

Could it be possible that some soldiers earned there EKI or II during one single battle (let say 5point and you would get an EKII) and others needed 5 battles to get to there 5points. So at the end of the war more and more soldiers got to there 5points and with it the EKII.
Not saying that there was a point system in getting the EK, but more like getting an Oscar for your whole career and not just for one movie?

Cheers, Thomas

[Robert P.]

After reading all your posts in this thread, I was thinking about the following:

Could it be possible that some soldiers earned there EKI or II during one single battle (let say 5point and you would get an EKII) and others needed 5 battles to get to there 5points. So at the end of the war more and more soldiers got to there 5points and with it the EKII.
Not saying that there was a point system in getting the EK, but more like getting an Oscar for your whole career and not just for one movie?

Cheers, Thomas

I think it's already been stated that the EKII could be given to an individual for one single act of bravery, or for meritorious service alone, which could have been earned over a period of time. The US Bronze Star comes to mind, the 'V' device denoting personal bravery in a battlefield situation, without the 'V' device for meritorious service while serving in a combat unit.

Robert

[Simon O.]

A double award of an EKII and EKI for a single action should be regarded as quite exceptional and rare.

I'd also argue that the 'worth' of an EKI on upwards was more for a private soldier than for an officer. We have statistics for the award of the RK by rank, it'd be interesting to see the same statistics for the DKiG and ehrenblattspange.

As mentioned, the EK series could be awarded based on a units performance, so the commander of a unit was decorated to reflect the achievements of the unit. That's why you sometimes see a btl.\rgt. or division take pride in their commander being awarded the RK. It's also why you see higher proportions of the higher decorations going to company, battalion and regiment commanders.