Knights Cross VS. Congressional Medal of Honor

[Sparky]

CMOH

See, It's in how it's worded.

I believe that the law states that it is illegal to "buy" or "sell" the Medal of Honor and some other bits and pieces in relation to it.

It may also come down to the interpretation of the law.

I may be wrong?

There is a very informative older thread on the site somewhere.

[R v Kempen]

Gregory Koepp wrote:

because their aginst the law to sell or own, if you are not the reciving owner

Does that mean when the recipient dies the CMoH has to be returned to the government?

Richard

[Sparky]

CMOH

No, they do not have to be returned to the government.

[Mark S.]

somewhere is here.

The legality of owning the CMoH has been discussed exhaustively in the International forum.

[Steve Sherlock]

With respect to the question of the CMH being strictly for valor, that may be so in theory, and in most cases, but not entirely. The awards of the medal to Douglas MacArthur after he left Corregidor in 1942 and Marine Corps Colonel David Shoup at Tarawa are examples where the medal was given for more excellence in command than any act or acts of valor.

ss

[Dave Danner]

I wouldn't necessarily include Col. Shoup, but you could probably add Vice Admiral Bulkeley, the most highly decorated serviceman of World War Two (sorry Audie), to that list. Still, all their citations involved gallantry to some extent, although Col. Shoup's was more evident than Gen. MacArthur's or Adm. Bulkeley's.

Here are their citations:

BULKELEY, JOHN DUNCAN:

For extraordinary heroism, distinguished service, and conspicuous gallantry above and beyond the call of duty as commander of Motor Torpedo Boat Squadron 3, in Philippine waters during the period 7 December 1941 to 10 April 1942. The remarkable achievement of Lt. Comdr. Bulkeley's command in damaging or destroying a notable number of Japanese enemy planes, surface combatant and merchant ships, and in dispersing landing parties and land-based enemy forces during the 4 months and 8 days of operation without benefit of repairs, overhaul, or maintenance facilities for his squadron, is believed to be without precedent in this type of warfare. His dynamic forcefulness and daring in offensive action, his brilliantly planned and skillfully executed attacks, supplemented by a unique resourcefulness and ingenuity, characterize him as an outstanding leader of men and a gallant and intrepid seaman. These qualities coupled with a complete disregard for his own personal safety reflect great credit upon him and the Naval Service .

MacARTHUR, DOUGLAS

For conspicuous leadership in preparing the Philippine Islands to resist conquest, for gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty in action against invading Japanese forces, and for the heroic conduct of defensive and offensive operations on the Bataan Peninsula. He mobilized, trained, and led an army which has received world acclaim for its gallant defense against a tremendous superiority of enemy forces in men and arms. His utter disregard of personal danger under heavy fire and aerial bombardment, his calm judgment in each crisis, inspired his troops, galvanized the spirit of resistance of the Filipino people, and confirmed the faith of the American people in their Armed Forces.

SHOUP, DAVID MONROE

For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty as commanding officer of all Marine Corps troops in action against enemy Japanese forces on Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll, Gilbert Islands, from 20 to 22 November 1943. Although severely shocked by an exploding enemy shell soon after landing at the pier and suffering from a serious, painful leg wound which had become infected, Col. Shoup fearlessly exposed himself to the terrific and relentless artillery, machinegun, and rifle fire from hostile shore emplacements. Rallying his hesitant troops by his own inspiring heroism, he gallantly led them across the fringing reefs to charge the heavily fortified island and reinforce our hard-pressed, thinly held lines. Upon arrival on shore, he assumed command of all landed troops and, working without rest under constant, withering enemy fire during the next 2 days, conducted smashing attacks against unbelievably strong and fanatically defended Japanese positions despite innumerable obstacles and heavy casualties. By his brilliant leadership daring tactics, and selfless devotion to duty, Col. Shoup was largely responsible for the final decisive defeat of the enemy, and his indomitable fighting spirit reflects great credit upon the U.S. Naval Service.

Dave

[Dave Danner]

The current legal standard, by the way, is that the recipient "distinguish himself conspicuously by gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States; while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force; or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party."

Dave

[bobcam1]

you can't put a price on a Medal of Honor tho, because their aginst the law to sell or own, if you are not the reciving owner. so really how could you find a real price for one?

Just to keep things accurate.....Even before the new Stolen Valor statute, it had never been against any law to OWN a MOH.....It had only been illegal to sell, trade, or profit from them, The new amended law also makes it a crime to wear one in public, if not a recipient. Even THAT law has an amendment pending, to ease the restrictions for legitimate collectors, in order to enable them to trade in and sell, US decorations, which are now somewhat restricted. The MOH is of course, exempt, and is still restricted.

Bob.

[Gary B]

Hi,

Interesting thread.

One thing that has not been mentioned is that the German award system is a "ladder system". With very few exceptions (Eben Emael comes to mind - and even there the officers were awarded the EKs and the RK all at the same time) one had to earn all of the lower awards before being considered for the RK. So in a sense the RK was for bravery or exceptional command over a prolonged period of time. A US or British soldier could earn the highest US/UK decoration based on one action.

Gary B

[Luftm40]

Comparisons of the Knight's Cross to the Medal of Honor, or the Victoria Cross for that matter, are highly subjective. The numbers do not tell the whole story.

The Knight's Cross was both a bravery and a merit/leadership award. Many or most of the 7% or so of general officer recipients got it for their unit's performance, not individual acts of bravery.

The Medal of Honor may only be given for valor, and a very high degree of bravery at that. Of the 464 Medals awarded in World War Two, 266, or 57.3%, were posthumous. As for the Victoria Cross, 181 were awarded in World War Two, of which 82, or 45.3%, were posthumous.

In World War One, 633 VCs were awarded, and 188 were posthumous, while the US awarded 124 Medals of Honor, of which 33 were posthumous.

The Medal of Honor has become even harder to earn. In Korea, 71.8% (94/131) were posthumous. In Vietnam, 62.9% (154/245) were. In Somalia, 100% (2/2) were. The VC has become even rarer. Four each were awarded in Korea and Vietnam, of which 2 in each conflict were posthumous. Both Falklands VCs were posthumous. The only other post-World War Two VC was to a Gurkha in Malaya who is one of 15 living recipients (as of 13 April 2003, there were 137 living Medal of Honor recipients).

Dave

...also, all three MoHs from the current conflict have been posthumous (1 soldier, 1 Marine and 1 SEAL)