Original EK2 (98)?

[ivanjsl1474]

Hi, following recommendations, I started a new thread to ask about a EK2.
I need to know your opinion about this EK2. I'm bidding for it, but I'm not sure about its authenticity. What is your opinion?

This is an EK2, Rudolf Souval marked 98.





P.D: thanks for the recommendations

Ing. Iván Sánchez
http://www.mcy.com.ve

[Stu W]

Souval frame EKII mm98

Hello Ivan,

Thanks for starting a separate thread for this item. I am sure you will get prompt replies.

When I first reviewed the reverse on the other thread I had immediate concerns with regards to much of the beading. In particular to the lower portion of the 3 and 9 o'clock arms as well as the entire 6 o'clock arm. Having now seen the obverse I am thinking that it's just a poor photo of the reverse. If however the beading is that smooth I would not buy that cross.

The obverse features appear to be those of a Souval frame and core. The extended center beading in the outer 8 corners is present as is the rounded inner beading adjacent to the swas. Another feature you want to see is the known die flaw on the 12 o'clock arm. It takes the form of a short horizontal piece of metal connecting primarily the 3rd and 4th beads as you count from left to right. It may overlap slightly into the 2nd as well. I am unable to see that in this cross but if you are able to get a photo of that spot maybe you will see it. I am going to add a photo of a die flaw at the end of my text for you to see what I mean.

Souval EKII were known to have the jump ring only attached on the obverse side. Something else to check with the seller if possible.

Souval made EK well past the end of the war so it's impossible to accurately date most of them without provenance.

As I mentioned in my PM it would also be best to read Peter Wikings fine article.

Here are mm and die flaw photos to compare to. If you need full cross views let me know. I hope this helps.

Regards,
Stu

[Stu W]

2/2

2/2

[ivanjsl1474]

Thanks

OK. I read the Peter Wikings article. Now, I have an idea about the authenticity of the EKII. Thanks for your help.

Regards,

Ing. Iván Sánchez
http://www.mcy.com.ve

[ivanjsl1474]

Seller's description

I'll send you the seller's description of the EKII

"THE INNER CORNERS OF THE FRAME SURROUNDING THE EMBLEM ARE CURVED AND THE OUTER CORNERS OF THE BRADED FRAME HAVE THE CHARACTERISTIC RIDGE. IT IS MADE OF THREE PIECE CONSTRUCTION; THAT IS, TWO SEPARATE FRAMES AND A MAGNETIC IRON CORE. THE SUSPENSION LOOP IS NOT ORIGINAL AS FAR AS I KNOW SINCE IT IS MADE OF BRASS AND USUALLY THEY ARE MADE OF NEUSILBER, A WHITE METAL. THE BEADING ON THE REVERSE FRAME IS FLATTENED ALMOST COMPLETELY ON THE SIX O'CLOCK ARM BUT GRADUALLY BECOMES MORE DISTINCT SO AT THE TOP OF THE TWELVE O'CLOCK ARM, IT IS NORMAL. THERE IS NO NO ORIGINAL PAINT LEFT ON THE CORE, INSTEAD THERE IS A LIGHT PATINA OF THIN SURFACE RUST. COMES WITH A RIBBON THAT I DON'T BELIEVE IS ORIGINAL."

Ing. Iván Sánchez
http://www.mcy.com.ve

[Stu W]

Further to last...

Hello Ivan.

Ivan, as I mentioned in my previous posting the beading was what concerned me from the start. I would agree that the ribbon ring has been replaced. Frankly I would have nothing further to do with this cross if I were you. Souval are controversial to begin with, they are not rare and can be found in much better condition for around the 125USD price point. Sometimes less.

Regards,
Stu

[AUSGANG]

My message to Ivan:

Hi there. I am the seller of the Souval Iron Cross that you are bidding on. I am a member of Wehrmacht Awards and I saw the thread that you started on the cross in their Crosses forum. This cross is a decent example of a Souval Cross that has suffered a good amount of wear in its time and was probably recently found. I described that cross in appropriate detail but I never stated that it was marked 98 as you state in your first post on the thread. I have a Souval that is definitely pre -1945 and this cross has all the same characteristics but has less detail; a condition I believe is due to its provenance. I state that this is an original WW2 Iron cross and to the best of my knowledge as a collector of Third Reich Iron Crosses, it is so. This item came with an assortment of other genuine WW2 items. As has been stated before concerning these crosses, it is difficult to determine date of manufacture. I am not out to rip anyone off and the low price for which it is selling on ebay at this point is indicative of its questionable chronology. At any rate, it was in my collection until I found a better example. I just want to make clear that I have never misrepresented this item. Thanks, Ausgang

[ivanjsl1474]

Hi. Yes, You're right, I was confused about the mark. I understood wrong the item description about the replaced ring (translation mistake). Thanks

Ing. Iván Sánchez
http://www.mcy.com.ve

[R. Schmitt]

My message to Ivan:
Hi there. I am the seller of the Souval Iron Cross .....
....I just want to make clear that I have never misrepresented this item. Thanks, Ausgang

Hats to you Ausgang -
I got the impression your description leaves no questions open, it's not everyday that you see that on ebay (unlike many EK2 that are simply lacking important details in their description, mostly that they're not orginals.)
KR
Rainer