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    #1

    unmarked 1st class iron cross

    Hi everyone,
    I have just purchased this set which is the iron cross along with the certificate.
    The iron cross is not maker marked, so does anyone know just by looking at the photos who it was made by?
    It was not cheap, so how much do you think it is worth please, and then i will know if i paid too much for it.
    and lastly, could someone tell me please how i can find out information about the chap who it was awarded to.
    regards,
    belinda
    Last edited by belinda; 03-25-2009, 08:12 AM.
    sigpic"BATTLES ARE SOMETIMES WON BY GENERALS, BUT WARS ARE NEARLY ALWAYS WON BY SERGEANTS AND PRIVATES"
    Tags: None
    #2
    the closs up of the front
    Last edited by belinda; 03-25-2009, 08:12 AM.
    sigpic"BATTLES ARE SOMETIMES WON BY GENERALS, BUT WARS ARE NEARLY ALWAYS WON BY SERGEANTS AND PRIVATES"

    Comment

      #3
      of the back
      Last edited by belinda; 03-25-2009, 08:12 AM.
      sigpic"BATTLES ARE SOMETIMES WON BY GENERALS, BUT WARS ARE NEARLY ALWAYS WON BY SERGEANTS AND PRIVATES"

      Comment

        #4
        The cross looks to be a Souval, or Rudolph Souval. They have a distictive beading pattern. Any pics of the rear set up? As for worth, I feel a cross like this on it's own would fetch anywhere from $210-$275 US. You say it has documentation, which will bring the price of the group up because of the cetificates or any other paperwork involved. All items have value. The problem I see with a group often is proving the cross and document came together. These awards are not named so prvenance is often hard to prove. If all items are genuine and in decent shape, you still have nice collectables.

        Comment

          #5
          certificate
          Last edited by belinda; 03-25-2009, 08:12 AM.
          sigpic"BATTLES ARE SOMETIMES WON BY GENERALS, BUT WARS ARE NEARLY ALWAYS WON BY SERGEANTS AND PRIVATES"

          Comment

            #6
            The document was awarded on Hitler's birthday!

            Comment

              #7
              Souval Frame Cross

              Hello Belinda,

              As Steve says your cross is Souval. That is indeed how it is referred to but I believe that only the frame is a Souval as the swas is the thin or narrow type. Souval cores I am familiar with have a fat swas.

              Some things about Souval...

              He made both frames and cores. Also sold his frames to others who then used their cores in them. Notably Orth. Souval frames are identifiable by the extended bead in each of the 8 outer corners, the rounded inner beading by the swas and the die flaw on the 12 o'clock arm. The die flaw is a small horizontal connection between the 3rd and 4th beads from the left on that arm.

              If it was also a Souval core it would have a "Dipped" 3 meaning that the 3 in 1939 would be lower (visible to the naked eye) than the other numbers. As it is absent I believe your core is not a Souval.

              I think you have an authentic pre-45 piece however. Keep in mind that Souval made his EK for years after the war. That's the reason many do not collect them, although I do myself.

              As to cost/value. The cross alone can be purchased in Canada for $220-250USD today at dealer prices. It could well be more in an area where they are few and far between. In addition your document would enhance the value considerably although there is usually no way to tell what document went with an EK other than oral provenance. I have no experience with documents so cannot comment further in that regard.

              One of our members, Peter Wiking, has written a fine article on Souval frame EK. It is pinned to the top of this forum. I suggest that you read it. It may help you with your understanding of these unique EK.

              Last but not least. I recommend you post pictures of your anticipated purchases before you pay for them. Any credible seller will allow that and if they don't then walk away from the deal. There are many items out there. You don't want to get stuck with fakes. Our own eStand is probably the safest place to start.

              Kind regards,
              Stu

              Comment

                #8
                I wonder who made that core... Its deffo nothing like the "standard" core so A: some other producent made the core, or B: Souval made different cores? maybe very early? anyone...

                Oh, nice cross by the way

                Comment

                  #9
                  Here's my Souval EK2. Note the core and the swaz. Not the fat swaz some Souval's had but one like Belinda has posted. Perhaps this core was shared by a number of makers.
                  Attached Files

                  Comment

                    #10
                    many thanks for all your help so far.
                    I definately want to research this further, as what i bought was FIVE awards with their certificates which belonged to two brothers. This one i took photos of, as i thought that this would be the more expensive of them all. The others are two 2nd class iron crosses, given to each brother and one silver and one bronze IAB's that were issued to each brother, meaning that one had the silver and one had the bronze one.
                    The person i bought them from stated that he got them from the immediate family, but this i can't proof.
                    regards,
                    belinda
                    sigpic"BATTLES ARE SOMETIMES WON BY GENERALS, BUT WARS ARE NEARLY ALWAYS WON BY SERGEANTS AND PRIVATES"

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Thick or Fat Swas

                      Here is a Thick or Fat Swas...

                      Steve...although I have seen thick and thin on the EKI I have only seen one type swas on the EKII. Both with and w/o maker mark.

                      I also have never seen a Dipping 3 on an EKII just the EKI so I think your posted EKII is a good authentic Souval frame and core.

                      Perhaps Peter Wiking or Grueni will see this thread and confirm what I have observed. Or correct me if I am wrong.

                      Regards,
                      Stu
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by Stu W; 11-05-2007, 01:26 PM.

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Even if Souval got the core from elsewhere, wouldn't they still be considered the firm who "made" the cross? Who else would it be from? They did most of the work didn't they?

                        Comment

                          #13
                          When is a Souval not a Souval?

                          Hi Steve,

                          I think I understand your question and I would say Yes that the EK are Souval EK even if they have another maker core in them. The frame being the predominant feature with this type of cross. It's a bit of a mystery though. Did A use B's cores or did B use A's frames?

                          I don't speak from any great level of expertise here but feel that it may have simply been a case of one maker walking across the road and borrowing what they needed from another maker if they ran short and time was of the essence. Possibly one maker made and sent cores to several others for assembly much in the position of a sub-contractor?

                          I think that some makers, much like the cottage industry early political dagger makers, were often in close proximity to one another, and in an age when transportation was often slow and limited in scope by the standards of today, they simply used what was on hand or available close by if the need arose.

                          As to your EKII, I think that is the typical Souval EKII core in a Souval frame. Souval through and through. It's in the EKI where I differentiate. The EKI fat swas I believe to be the true Souval core. The thin swas EKI core is possibly a Souval assembled item but to me more likely another maker who obtained Souval frames. I still would refer to it as a Souval cross however.

                          Anyone reading this should realize that this is all IMHO. I'm no expert, don't profess to be and don't want to have anyone think I am. I have studied Souval somewhat as I have had a few but that's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

                          If I have overstepped and am supplying bad advice please let me know and I will edit out the post. It's my intention to pay back where I can for the assistance I have received in the past, not start controversy or mislead anyone.

                          Regards to all,
                          Stu

                          Comment

                            #14
                            I think what you are saying is right Stu. The same core by diffrent makers was common in the Imperial crosses so why not later?

                            Comment

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