Evolution of the Juncker EK die :

[Robert P.]

There is one point that I would like to add that refers to the above cross. It's obverse surface is convex, not flat. As I understand this, this is a trademark or characteristic of a true Juncker core. Here again, if this is incorrect I can stand correction on this point. The reverse surface is flat.

Robert

[Douglas 5]

Had a look at your pictures .
Pic 28 : shows the hump overlap nicely .
Pic 29 and 30 :
2nd bead type -bead corners show a lot more die wear , made after the one shown on post 28 and the two at the beginning .
Looking the pic on post 30 , I do see a lot of deteriation to the die on this one too . The view from the top does not let see the intensity , which one may consider 'lumpy' paint . If you can take a picture and at an angle something like post 10 , almost flat if you can , ...as much as I can tell , the surface chipping is more advanced . I see the same deteriation blob on the tip of the one and lumps on the bottom loops of the 9's . And then too is it the zink possibly blistering / bubbling under the paint . It is breaking through on some spots already ?
Good you brought this cross up :
I did not mention the non magnetics cores t all , the post was long all ready , should have . Different views regarding those , why they were used , cheap reduce weight , metal shortage and or softness .
In view to the early die problems , to me , there is only one logical answer !?
Switching to a softer core metal may not have been a choice , as it was non-conforming to regulations , but a temporary necessity , Juncker had to under take ..... simply to prolong the life of the core die .
Douglas
..

[Robert P.]

Beading is hard to photograph...

Robert

[Douglas 5]

Convex core , yes something that is a feature of Juncker cores . The question is why is it not the case for the 2nd core , as shown at the start , they used it and did they make it ,.... would support outside help , would it not . Not W&L so possibly S&L or K&Q ?

[Douglas 5]

The lumpy paint makes it very difficult to tell , indeed .
The circled areas are of interest where chipping had occured on mine .
The surface should be even , there may be some 'burs' on the rounded parts of the number . Pic areas of interest .

[Robert P.]

Convex core , yes something that is a feature of Juncker cores . The question is why is it not the case for the 2nd core , as shown at the start , they used it and did they make it ,.... would support outside help , would it not . Not W&L so possibly S&L or K&Q ?

Wachtler & Lange, IMO.

I have (3) other Juncker-type EKII's with cores which appear to have W&L characteristics, the short '1', the long '3' in 1939, and flat core. IMO, I think the EKII ('09') that you posted of mine is pure W&L core, frame, etc., only produced by W&L, or either gave parts to '109' (maybe '109'?) to make the cross themselves. It has the flat W&L core. Junckers are extremely rare, true Junckers. Juncker, IMO, had transition pieces that utilized their cores and W&L's frame, as my last cross above, assembled by Juncker...IMO. There is no real way to prove this - it's a theory based upon what I see as components. I have many, many '100' W&L EKII's with this same flat core and features as the '109' cross. And, I'll add, they are of two core designs (the W&L's). Just some food for thought...IMO.

Robert

[Robert P.]

Typical W&L frame with 'scrunched' bead...

Robert

[Tiger 1]

I noticed that some of these crosses are refered to as 'Juncker type'.

Is this a styling designation or does this denote that these crosses were actually made by Juncker?

Tony

[Robert P.]

I noticed that some of these crosses are refered to as 'Juncker type'.

Is this a styling designation or does this denote that these crosses were actually made by Juncker?

Tony

The former, Tony. This is how Detlev titles them on his updates, pure and simple. I asked him once what made him call them that, if it was something possibly to do with Juncker's RK's having the crosshatching on their frames too. His answer was vague; Now I understand why.

Robert

[Douglas 5]

Ok Robert <
This is where it gets important to have the full picture with the date . My error that last one has a W&L frame . Sorting ...printed them out , filled the table .
CORES:
This means : this far we have in this thread :
No real Juncker core posted ? -- Not even my proven early EK2 ?
2 W&L cores
2 or 3 Juncker Style- imported cores

If my early 1939 Juncker frame EK2 does not have a Juncker core , ...
Juncker started making EK2's from the beginning with foreign cores ????
Far fetched is it not , And if they (eventually) did use their own core , Why so few and why did they stop ???
Douglas

[Robert P.]

I guess this is the reason everyone calls Junckers a 'minefield'. There are just so many opposing theories. Last night I sat and inspected my (4) 'Juncker-type' EKII's, and found that not one, but all four had the convex cores! And I was under the impression that only the core with the straight top or flat top 1939 date was the 'acceptable' Juncker original. Well, I was wrong. Half of mine have the flat top date, and the other half the near W&L date with the short '1' and long '3'. Check to see if your core is flat or convex. One other thing I do notice about the W&L type cores in my crosses is that they have the larger and taller swastika. The sides of the swastika are 90 degrees to the core, as is one of the two types of W&L cores. I've looked at so many crosses the last three days until I'm starting to think they all look the same. No, I'm going to do some more serious date comparisons between my true W&L's ('100') and these crosshatched-framed, copper-ringed 'Juncker-type' crosses with the near W&L date.

I've got to say, I do like Ben's cross. IMO, I think it's a true Juncker cross. And, once again, I think my '09' cross is a 'transition' piece, if we can call it that. It has the convex core, the copper ring (which, IMO, was Juncker's earliest jump ring), open (unsoldered) ribbon ring, and the early W&L frame. My opinions, I know, differ greatly from what others might call 'early'. I'll do some more date study.

Robert