Evolution of the Juncker EK die :

[Douglas 5]

And quick to ad I see a Juncker frame planchet , W&L beading ,but with W&L's own core with this late period 100 W&L . Left over frame planchet after the bombing maybe . Always questions will remain unanswered .

[Douglas 5]

Why the similarity between both 'crunch bead frames ?
The engraved bead in shape and flow are so similar they have to have been done by the the same engraver . The close friendship would point to this after the early help with Junckers die failure .
Even if different and done by the same master engraver , personal features will show up on both . .. I refer to the bead wave as it arches across with a bit of a wave motion . A peronal finger print . No other 2 frames by any maker have that kind of bead crunch .
Juncker on top and W&L on the bottom .

[Douglas 5]

I would say the friendship went so far as Juncker contracting EK2' and the EK1 L/12 out to W&L , and further more another reason exists IMO .
This I would say was Junckers choice , because of the mas of new awards being tendered out between mid 41 and mid 42 , aprox 12 new awards of witch were Flak and Luftwaffen badges , something Juncker was cean on doing and always wanted , and the pieces they ended up making are breath taking .
The plant was full ,so what else as to move the EK2's and LDO 12's out of house !
Private purchase having low priority being on site and this is where the other makers come into play supplying parts,for W&L who assembled most of them, creating more variations ,especially amongst EK1's. An area I not getting into as yet .

[Douglas 5]

The other Juncker involment is with 109 W&H . a minefield in itself with the packet combination issue . How to separate post war put-to-gathers .
This Juncker 109of mine is unique and shows a connection . It is a reused , ... as to re-engraved Juncker die ,where the Juncker style crosshatching is still to be seen .
Still some unknowns , Juncker style core - somewhat, but deffinetly Juncker core paint . The frame is 2 stamped .
Juncker stamped pieces are rare and this one is original and pre-stamped prior to soldering !!! Heavy nickel plated frame , and hump has been filed off .

[Douglas 5]

Another 109 with Juncker ties to me is also the ring stamped 109 , partialy stamped, that Robert Pierce has .
The Juncker misaligned hump is very nice to see and identify !!
pieces I beleave are Juncker made for 109 .

[Douglas 5]

Back to the re-engraved original Juncker die , ..
Small sections of the old crosshatching is still to be seen .
This created wide bulge corners . The Swastika insides are filed with dirt but on the round side indicting a lot of die ware .

[Douglas 5]

Almost done :
The original Juncker hump filed down , heavy plated brass ring .

[Douglas 5]

Always the contraversy of the stamped 2 . This one positioned as on RK's, it was stamped befor soldering and after plating , no solder where the halfs meet ! To me not post war done .

[Douglas 5]

As one can see the previous 2 on the frame is what I call the symetrical 2 . This is the only other one i can tell for certain that is of that type and a full Juncker , is the one Luud posted .
His picture of the mark was good enough to do this disectioning with .

[Douglas 5]

The full Juncker Cross mark taken from

[Douglas 5]

The pitfall of the 2 and L/12 marks : A quick summation of what I found .

[Douglas 5]

The marks are a subject of their own for some other time .
Many unanswered questions , ...
The die flaw findings are evidence of a severe problem , IMO leading to contracting out with W&L , and the base for the combo variations we see now .
I would to thank all that help me with this .
The floor is open .

Regards Douglas

[Robert P.]

Very interesting study Douglas,

The hand-applied frosting dates back to the earliest examples, huh? I find that interesting. To add to your thread, I have some EKII examples that have the same frames as the first example you posted, with the cross-hatched design. Some have the same core, some have the W&L, but all have the copper jump ring. Detlev has always referred to these as 'Juncker type' crosses. One or two of them have non-magnetic cores. Are these to be considered possibly a later war change with the copper rings, the nickel silver being the first Juncker cross? I see also the misalignment of the two frame halves on this piece at the 'hump'.

Robert

[Robert P.]

Douglas,

One correction before I add more thoughts - the cross above has a silver ring. I don't know if it is solid, or just plated, but the ring has picked up some of the background color and made it look copper-colored when it is not. My apologies for this mistake.
One thing I wanted to add, of all the Juncker-type EKII's I own the only piece that shows any die flaws to the lower arm, as Ben's example does in post #6, is the piece above with the silver jump ring. The other (3) Juncker-types I have show no sign of die breakdown on the lower arm, and they all have the copper jump ring. Would this not place the copper jump ring types before the silver-ringed examples you have posted? Here is a non-magnetic example with a very different date type, and no lower arm breakdown visible under a 10X loop...

Robert

[Robert P.]

,