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    "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing'

    I got an article from Jamie Cross in my e-mail today. Sending me the mail might have something to do with the Rounder he's currently offering at a bargain price. The title of this thread is also the sub-title of the article "Continuing a guide to collecting .... Third Reich Medals & Badges"
    <O</O
    <O</O

    He starts with:
    <O</O

    "As many of you know I am not a great fan of internet forums. I believe that the individual must do his own research and not piggyback on someone else's. We should ask questions and follow up these expert statements"
    <O</O

    I certainly can understand if someone does not like Internet fora (forum, lat, plural fora) and everybody who does so has his own reasons. What I do not understand, however, is that one "must to do his own research" but is not allowed to ‚piggyback on "someone else's". I would read this as something to the effect " Do not read somebody elses book, do research for your own", - if you read other peoples rsearch you ‚piggyback'.
    Asking questions is a very good thing and I always thought that Internet fora are mostly about ‚questions' and ‚answers'. And nobody (to my knowledge) is prohibited to follow up on anything.
    <O
    <O</O

    Ah, but here it comes:
    <O
    <O</O

    "I know some forums do not like this approach and expell members, hound them out and shoot them down because they dare to question these "expert" opinions. But these forums, due to much false information and a frightening lack of knowledge on awards and medal, are the ones killing this hobby, the sad result being frequently, that reproductions become originals and originals, reproductions."
    <O
    <O</O

    I'm absolutely convinced that Mr. Cross is not talking about this forum. Why? Because here we do not expell members for their opinions, we do not have a vicious squad "to hound them out and shoot them down". Of couse, here, as everywhere, the occasional false information is posted because neither we here (nor anybody, including Mr. Cross ) is free of human errors. However, the pure statistical mass of people with a keen and sometimes very deep knowledge in this hobby allows for a very broad approach in the discussion and in nearly all cases an in depth investigation of the discussed topic.
    <O
    <O
    Unless, of course, one believes that all participants in fora are complete idiots and don't know what they are talking about! They don't even ‚piggyback' on earlier correct information - they just float in a big blue yonder of ignorance. <O
    <O
    Or, as another option, one wants to make others believe that this is the case. So what is the purpose of this nice introduction?<O
    B&D PUBLISHING
    Premium Books from Collectors for Collectors

    #2
    I just want to say one thing next: If it is fair game to critique internet fora in an artice it is also fair game (as a moderator of such a forum) to critique the article. The more so when there is an educated difference of opinions.
    <O
    <O
    Namely this (after explaining why a certain zinc made Demjansk shield is not a Floch copy, in his opinion):


    <O
    "Then just recently, another collector has gone to the lenghts of getting his items looked at by a scientific organisation. Because his ‚expert' told him his award contained epoxy resin (not the glue, but the metal primer type of epoxy), and as this product was not used until 1950, he has concluded his award is a fake - a bold but incorrect statement"


    Now everybody else who would do such an investigation with an expert and would be told the exact same thing would - of course - think that the item is a fake. But here Mr. Cross differs with the collector, naming the result a "bold but incorrect statement".

    <O<O
    Mr. Cross talks about epoxy resin as a paint primer which of course is not what the collector was after. This was about the paint, not some primer. And (maybe Mr. Cross knows it, maybe not ), the paint was already investigated twice before via SEM (StereoElectronMicroscope Analysis - another ‚made by the devil" and "we never used something like that in the early days" machine) and this investigation showed that something was not right with the paint (not the primer - if there is one anyway).

    <O
    Fact is, and Mr. Cross does not deny that, that epoxy resin was found. He contacted an outfit named Scientific Ltd, a lady called Sarah. Now this is somewhat funny, since the investigation the collector did (with 3 crosses, by the way) was also done at Scientific Ltd. (the so called "expert" above...). So both got hold of the same ‚expert'!!!!!

    <O
    So the answer to the question "when was it introduced" was:


    <O
    "Unfortunately it's not something that Scientific Ltd. Can help you with . The consensus of opinion is that it was slowly introduced during the 1950's but I couldn't be any more accurate than that."


    <OOkay, for me the 1950's are still some times after May 8, 1945. So where's the difference here? At least we got the same opinion from the same experts twice. Thats consistent!<O
    B&D PUBLISHING
    Premium Books from Collectors for Collectors

    Comment


      #3
      So both people - the collector and the seller - got the same ‚expert' opinion: introduced in the 1950's.
      <O<O
      The collector thinks it's a fake (and he's right) and the dealer doesn't think so. So what does he do now?

      <O<O
      "More research in books and the internet showed that epoxy resin was used both on magnetic awards and steel helmets as a primer and for use for fixing the decals onto steel helmets. It was sprayed onto steel shell cases, again as an anti-rust primer...."
      <O
      <O
      <O
      Somebody could call reserching in books and on the internet (of all places..) ‚piggybacking' but I will not do so! I value books and the internet as very rich and diversified sources of information BUT the result is only as good as the input question.

      <O<OI have no knowledge about this pre May 1945 epoxy spray for helmet decals and I certainly will not research it on the net. I only know that when we as a group did research about epoxy paint we could not come up with that result. Maybe because we were looking for paint and not primer spray.

      <O<OFact is, however, that another investigation done in the USA could identify the epoxy paint as ( and I quote) "DER 664 UE was made post war in 1959, and that the general class of siliconated epoxy resins was not even INVESTIGATED, let alone patented, until 1947."

      <O<OThat settled the case for any scientific thinking collector or human being. But Mr. Cross has a different opinion and he is certainly entitled to it.
      <O
      <O
      "This knowledge (about the pre-45 epoxy spray) can be found with a little research and if only the collector had done this before announcing to all and sundry, he would have avoided a worldwide panic and the crunching of prices which has now befallen our hobby on these awards, helmets and cases"

      This statement brings it to the point .....panic and price crunching!

      As a side note: I owned one of these ‚medals'. I bought it from Wolfe & Hardin in 1990. After the investigation did prove this type to be post war, I approached Neil about this and I got my money back in full w/o any questions. There was no „panic“ on Steve and Neils side. Mr. Niemann always considered the Rounder a fake, so he never sold one. So no panic there either.
      B&D PUBLISHING
      Premium Books from Collectors for Collectors

      Comment


        #4
        .........



        "I'm absolutely convinced that Mr. Cross is not talking about this forum. Why? Because here we do not expell members for their opinions, we do not have a vicious squad "to hound them out and shoot them down". Of couse, here, as everywhere, the occasional false information is posted because neither we here (nor anybody, including Mr. Cross ) is free of human errors. However, the pure statistical mass of people with a keen and sometimes very deep knowledge in this hobby allows for a very broad approach in the discussion and in nearly all cases an in depth investigation of the discussed topic."

        Of course you are right Dietrich......likely he's talking about "another Forum"! I know first hand as I have the 'Badge of the Boot' and it's proudly worn

        This double talk, side stepping, covering up et al, actually will work against the participants in the long run! Creating a 'personal' aura is always used to railroad a legitimate thread or stated concern.

        If anyone wants a copy of the report regarding the materials utilized in the Rounder paint just PM/Email me!


        <O
        Regards,
        Dave

        Comment


          #5
          Dietrich, as I'm sure you're aware the article by Mr. Cross was published in the August edition of the Armourer magazine. What concerns me about this is that it is a widely read publication and some take it's articles as "gospel"; from my perspective this article is a damned site more potentially damaging than so called "piggy backing".

          Isn't almost all research based on "piggy backing" on other information - using reference books certainly is! Also collective research, such as forums is generally a damned site more effective/productive than singular research.

          I used to have a level of respect for Mr. Cross and his knowledge, due to various article/comments over the last couple of years this is now almost non-existent.

          Mike

          Comment


            #6
            If we didn't piggyback man would still be discovering fire. Amazing that this article comes out in time for him to list his cross for sale.....
            pseudo-expert

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Don Doering View Post
              If we didn't piggyback man would still be discovering fire. Amazing that this article comes out in time for him to list his cross for sale.....
              Don, I think man wouldn't exist if we didn't "piggyback" - we would still be part of the premordial chemical soup.

              The RK has been for sale for a couple of months now - I wonder why has nobody purchased it - sarcasm intended.

              Mike

              Comment


                #8
                What a strange statement, all work has to be referenced. The its "because I said so" method doesnt wash with me

                Comment


                  #9
                  If dealers think we are wrong, why not sign up and explain why, face to face?

                  Peter

                  Comment


                    #10
                    A problem I see with a lot of the older dealers is that they have quit learning. They believe they have seen it all. One only has to look at the African Heroes wares to know this isn't the case. Thank God some of them do continue though. This place would be very boring without the likes of Bob H and others.
                    pseudo-expert

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by AJC05 View Post
                      What a strange statement, all work has to be referenced. The its "because I said so" method doesnt wash with me
                      I think Mr. Cross is developing dementia or the forum chip on his shoulder has developed into the size of a potatoe of giant pumpkin proportions

                      Mike

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Peter Wiking View Post
                        If dealers think we are wrong, why not sign up and explain why, face to face?

                        Peter
                        Could it be a lack of bottle or something more sinister - like they know their "facts" are fundamentally flawed.

                        Mike

                        Comment


                          #13
                          "If I have seen farther than others it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants"

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Don Doering View Post
                            A problem I see with a lot of the older dealers is that they have quit learning. They believe they have seen it all. One only has to look at the African Heroes wares to know this isn't the case. Thank God some of them do continue though. This place would be very boring without the likes of Bob H and others.
                            I think that the problem is partly due to the fact that until a few years ago when the internet really seemed to pick up and forums such as this were formed, that there were certain authors/collectors/dealers who had a lot of influence in the hobby.
                            Some of them have moved with the times and embraced the forums, gaining new and wider audiences, whilst others have seen their influence wane and have become embittered has-beens, exposed as frauds and sniping from the sidelines.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              ".....We feel that it is encumbant upon us to take the lead in assisting todays collector in distinguishing between the best of the modern copies and fakes and the original Third Reich Pieces upon which they are abased. It is hoped that our customers and guests will find this section useful...." (excerpted from thirdreichmedals.com)


                              but then he states:

                              As many of you know I am not a great fan of internet forums. I believe
                              that the individual must do his own research and not piggyback on someone else's. We should ask questions and follow up these expert statements"

                              Then why is he posting informative articles on his Internet Site, based on HIS perspectives, which just, by the way, happen to coincide with the merchandise he is selling? Methinks someone is very confused...

                              How do we spell hypocrite?

                              Regards,
                              Mark
                              "You can check out any time you like ..... But you can never leave....."

                              Comment

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