Did the Third Reich make any KVK 1's w/o swords in tombac? If so, who were the makers? Thanks
Carl C
Carl C
-
-
Of course they did. Here's one to start...S&L.Originally posted by Carl Christense View PostDid the Third Reich make any KVK 1's w/o swords in tombac? If so, who were the makers? Thanks
Carl C
Robert -
,Comment
-
mmComment
-
That's what I thought too, Robert but after digging into the matter a little more I found this.
On our own site it's written:
"Both divisions of the award were die struck and constructed in zinc with was a silver-plating..."
Okay, zinc it is. Next up:
"Tombak is an alloy of 82% copper, 8% tin, 7% zinc and 3% lead, ( source, Deutsche Industrie-Norm) and has a bronze color. Zinc badges on the other hand are encounted in either what is refered to as "finezinc" a refined zinc alloy or the later "Kriegsmetall" which was a very low quality alloy. Both have a grey apperance with the Kriegsmetall being a very dark grey."
You can hardly call tombak for zinc with a 7% in the mix.
The last one:
"Tombak badges on the other hand can look brand new depending on the amount of wear and quality of storage, but worn spots or edges will expose the brass colored base metal."
I haven't yet seen the bronze color so far, collection or pics, so imo no KVK 1's were made out of tombak, only zinc.
This is by far some final conclusion, so please chip in
Comment
-
Frank,
I have always given way to the KVKI's following suit to their lesser counterparts, the KVKII's. Their early war pieces were clearly made from a nonferrous buntmetal. Their later war pieces were of silver-washed zinc. The early KVKI's had small round brass wire catches and narrow barrel hinges soldered directly to their nonferrous base metals, then electroplated with a nickel-silver, then frosted. Later in the war the hardware clearly changed to larger hinges and round or rectangular catchplates to enhance the soldering surface to the new zinc-base metal construction of the badges. Surely there was a change in base metals, or why would the hardware undergo such a change? Could 1,000 dealers of TR collectibles be wrong when they call early KVKI's 'buntmetal', and latewar KVKI's 'feinzinc'? I haven't much metalurgical knowledge to speak of. I presumed (venturing without authority) that the KVK family followed the basic evolution in construction materials as did nearly all TR qualification and combat badges. Maybe I can learn something new here...
RobertComment
-
Robert,
Like I wrote in the start of my first post: That's what I thought too. I don't disagree with you but Carl did put up an interesting question and made me look more into this.
The first place to look was here of course: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/war_...ss/1_class.htm where the zinc is mentioned.
Next I looked for what is buntmetall/tombak exactly. I've checked my kvk1's and on some of them the wash has started to go off and no sign of brass underneath. Maybe because of the electroplate that you mention?
I'm still digging and think it's interesting and important to know and discuss how the construcion was made and the metals involved.
EG all these metals: buntmetall, tombak, finezinc, kriegsmetall, monkeymetal etc, what are they exactly.
Finally about the 1000 TR dealers, I've found out there are some unwritten terms in this hobby that everybody stick to. An ISA is a GAB but an EK is not an IC if you can follow me. The same could be with the kvk's. If they're silvercolored and the catch and hinge is soldered then it's a tombak but if it's grey and bobbly with integrated catch and hinge then it's a zinc cross. Just to be the devil's advocate
Btw this page is also a good read: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/coll...nstruction.htmComment
-
Frank,
Good reference materials. Thanks. I have IAB's and GAB's that have a nice plating of nickel silver over the zinc/feinzinc base metals. They're jewels! I also have plenty of silver-washed badges of the same, still holding their mint condition finishes. And I have some zinc pieces that appear to still be in their unworn mint condition, only have lost their finsihes. Some call this loss of finish 'evaporation', or just plain 'degeneration'. I also have badges by the same maker, all with a different finish, yet all the pieces are zinc base. I've heard some badges had too much of one particular element (perhaps zinc) added, and became unsuitable for combat wear because of brittleness. Their alloy 'mixes' or 'batches' must have changes continually as they evolved from die-forging to injection molding processes. When you look up the word 'tombak' or 'tombac' you find a wide array of definitions and element compositions. It's a deep study, too deep for me. I'm at rest with the simplicity of the two terms 'buntmetal' and 'zinc' in defining composition of awards. And the words 'neusilber' and altsilber' in the EK family, and the percentages of silver in the KC's and SC's. I strive for the 'tombak' pieces whenever possible, but have recently found great delight in finding pristine examples of Heer and Luftwaffe zinc flak badges, as well as nicely-preserved CCC's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombac
RobertComment
-
Zinc KVK1 mm 4
To illustrate our discussion, could somebody post a picture of a KVK1 w/o swords mm 4 that is made of zinc? I looked around on the forum but couldn't seem to find one. Thanks.
Carl C
Comment
-
No problem, let's try this one. Sorry if we took over your thread.Comment
-
and reverse. Not my cross, thanks to the owner for the pics.Comment
-
Frank, thanks for the latest post. Don't fret taking over the thread. It's interesting how people with a common interest can get a discussion going. A small tremor of inquiry can lead to an avalanche of knowlege.
Carl CComment
-
I know this piece is a Deumer, but I'm using it to illustrate what I thought took the place of the tombak S&L KVKI before the integral hinge and catch was employed. The catch plate is round giving more soldering surface to the zinc base metal, the hinge likewise...
RobertComment
-
Careful, by definition, zinc is also a "nonferrous buntmetal"!Originally posted by robert pierce View PostComment
-
Would you consider this piece above to be a nonferrous buntmetal badge?Originally posted by Albert View Post
RobertComment
Comment