Unmarked EK2!

[Robert P.]

And the ring stamp - maybe struck off-center...possibly a '109'..?

Robert

[Robert P.]

All of these crosses have the distinct waffling in the corners adjacent the swastika, and on the outside corners of the frames...like your marked L/12.

Here's an EKI with the same features...unmarked.

Robert

[Robert P.]

rev

[Robert P.]

turned-up pin, Juncker-style.

[Douglas 5]

Robert:
Post # 16 , without a doubt , a slanted strike .
This is where the old guy from the local sheet metal and stamping place had very interesting knowledge !
The questions I had .
Picture of another off-level maker mark strike from a EK1 . The original question was if such a 'sliding' impression could determine if the piece was vaulted . The answer to that was , no - as the stamp was too small in size to show that , needs to be in size at least 20% of overall width to start showing a weaker impression in the middle .
At this time he referred to the stamp impression as " greasing " ! Workers lingo I guess .
Greasing or sliding ocures only for a split second at the first contact spot with the metal . As the impact force is not going totally down but some 'side' forces exist , the die edge slides or 'cuts in' a bit in a gouging motion , before meeting enough resistance to grab hold on one spot . The bottom foot of the 9 and a bit of the 0 shows that .
Interesting to note that once it cuts in like that it will continue into the metal like that and does not straighten up . A good example he used to explain this with was : You start drilling a hole on an angle you cannot change it or straighten it ! High stress on the die that creates fine surface chipping .
Hand stamping is very difficult and time consuming .
One more interesting fact that is the person was right handed . A natural thing when hand stamping , ... as is this case , the die was held in the left hand and the hitting hammer in the right hand . A natural tendency is to tilt the die rod towards the approaching hammer . Dies nowadays are set in leveled sliding guides that avoid this .
The other question I had was : a 3" die surviving a building collapsing and or a bombing . He chuckled saying : Go ahead level the place, we need a new one .
His dad had worked there and being 2nd generation now , has seen the old and big colossal die machines . generaly they would have been the same there as here , he thinks . Without hesitation his answer was -yes- certain they would survive . The die would have been set in an encapsuling housing or case on the machine and left lowered , the two half touching, when not in use .
The casing around the die would be excelant protection . The rest of the machine would probably be bent to hell and not fixable . Just like surviving in a safe . Now the die laying out in the open , a different story , either broken or melted , hard to say , all depends where it was at the time of the bombing .
In general a very good probability that the die , or any dies, could have survived .
I only asked this question thinking on the Juncker plant being hit and the possibility of salvaged dies either being sold and or used on some other machine by some other company .
Just food for thought .

[Hank C.]

Just to play the devil's advocate, on the mis-stamped MM in post 16, there's about 3/4 of the "9", 1/2 of the "0"....I'd expect to see at least SOMETHING from the "1", even if it was just the smallest of gouges where it could conceivably be.

Just my thoughts!

best
Hank

[Douglas 5]

Well thought of that for some time , Hank,
..... a drawing that will show that with hard enough strike and almost level , it could show the '1' but also why at this tilt, it will not show and cannot show the 1.
Once the depth of the 9 is reached the die in that spot reaches the backing of the die , so can not go any deeper , (the die does not bend or change angle , to make the 1 to go into the ring ), the die starts to flatten the ring instead . After the first strike he could of attempted it again straightning the die , the 1 would show then and the other two numbers would show some light double immeging .
From looks of it the strike is not deep , so no flattening of the ring would be present .
Drawing redone .
Douglas

[Robert P.]

Lee-Clark ;
The EK of yours did at one time have a hump, pictures shows it , only that is was filed down , or the die was plugged , so the hump does not cut out anymore when the die strikes the frame-sheets !
I am working on a something that might indicate a Junker die , that might have been used for contract work for other companies , like 109 .

Douglas,

What other evidence, if any, do you have to connect Juncker with Walter & Hentein? Rick S and I have been trying to link these Juncker-type crosses actually to Juncker, maybe their earliest crosses. I have one or two in non-magnetic cores - not brass, white metal or zinc perhaps. I'm very curious what you have on this, your theory of W&H salvaging the Juncker dies. Here's a marked Juncker EKI from LuckyLuud's collection. He's said he wouldn't mind me posting it. Notice it's the very same cross as the EKII's and EKI I posted, marked L/12 - an original Juncker mark.

Robert

[Robert P.]

,

[Robert P.]

,,

[Douglas 5]

Well try quickly to post these 12 pictures , just on the way out , so cannot discuss too much right now .
The variations 109 has could be explanined Juncker making for 109 Frames on location until bombing and then sold off salvaged dies to 109 , just a thought line with some evidence as a posssibilty , if enough is to be seen . 109 are found with diferent cores and 2 frames early with corner cross hatching and later without or modified die wit the one that I am showing.
A Walter Henlein Packeted cross .
Pic 1 : front

[Douglas 5]

Pic 2:back

[Douglas 5]

R\Frame marked with 2 on back :

[Douglas 5]

Closeup 1a

[Douglas 5]

Closeup 2