Spange EK1 your expert thoughts Please

[Hagar]

Hi all
I would like your opinions on this Spange Please it has no markings
and if its the real deal what would one pay for one of these?
thanx for your gudience
best regards
Peter

[AlikN]

Zinc L/16

[tinmantis]

loadsa these popping up recently, and on the cheaper end of the scale. Seems like the zinc couldn't hold the silver finish very well.
but
why so many all of a sudden? all zinc, all unmarked, same pins, same condition.
We had a discussion once about S+L EK1s being post-war if the pins were an unfinished brass color and overall bad finishing... I'm beginning to doubt these!
anyone else?
regards
jon

[DavidM]

Hello

Jon, on what evidence do you doubt them ? Simply because a few turn up suddenly ? Should we therefore doubt all the Deschler War Merit Crosses that Helmut Weitze pumped out a couple of months ago, (old stock from a shop in the former East Germany that had lain hidden for years if memory serves), or the comparative 'glut' of RKs that Detlev Niemann sold over the last few months, (he apparently purchased a few good collections, hence the rapid appearance of a load of RKs on his site) ?

There are curently no reasons to doubt that these are genuine, original war time made pieces. If the shape, size, style etc was different to the accepted war time versions, or there were clear casting marks, or something of the like that suggests fake or repro, then fine. But there isn't. If you have any evidence to show these are post war produced, please share it so that we can all learn.

Sorry Jon, but comments like that can lead to perfectly good pieces being deemed fake or post war without any real basis or evidence. By the way, I don't own one of these pieces so have no axe grind one way or another

Kind regards
David

[DavidM]

Sorry, double posted for some bizarre reason !!

[tinmantis]

I don't have one either
but yes, alot turning up at once does make me wonder. No evidence whatsoever, just my jaded suspicious mind. But I would like to know where they came from, and would be very interested to see any of these direct from vets etc.
This example DOES conform to what we have accepted (very recently) as wartime S+L.
regards
jon

[tinmantis]

I don't have one either
but yes, alot turning up at once does make me wonder. No evidence whatsoever, just my jaded suspicious mind. But I would like to know where they came from, and would be very interested to see any of these direct from vets etc.
This example DOES conform to what we have accepted (very recently) as wartime S+L.
regards
jon

[tinmantis]

same bizarre double post!

[DavidM]

I don't have one either
but yes, alot turning up at once does make me wonder. No evidence whatsoever, just my jaded suspicious mind. But I would like to know where they came from, and would be very interested to see any of these direct from vets etc.
This example DOES conform to what we have accepted (very recently) as wartime S+L.
regards
jon

Hello Jon

I know what you mean about getting jaded and suspicous. However, as they conform to accepted wartime pieces I would give them the benefit of doubt. Let's face it, compare these to, say, a zinc 1st class War Merit Cross and they look pretty similar in that all the silver wash has gone, exposing the dull grey of the zinc. I have seen war merit crosses that are accepted as war time originals and have a brass, (or what looks from the colour like brass), rear set up. So there is presedent for this.

Just a hypothisis on my part, but what if these are unfinished rejects, dumped in a crate for recycling? Most zinc made items are viewed as being late war due to raw material shortages, and a lot of manufacturers, (as they still do today), would recycle below standard items; reusing the metals. The crate is still there at the wars end and slowly these find their way out into the market - or even, the crate lies forgotten in some little used part of a factory / warehouse until recently, hence the sudden appearance of a few of them all at once. As I say, pure hypothosis on my part, but this sort of scenario has happened and been seen before.

Regards
David

[tinmantis]

L/16 spangen have always been viewed with suspicion by collectors, and for good reasons, because I'd say a huge amount are repro.
I've seen only one or two L/16 marked EK2 spangen that I'd painfully accept as good. EK1 L/16 spangen, the same... I've seen only one or two I'd regard as OK. Now I see 10+ for sale within the last month. But yep, the 'bin theory' could be true.
I do believe S+L produced spangen, but in very limited numbers.
I also believe that it took S+L a long time to accept that the war was over
regards
jon

[DavidM]

L/16 spangen have always been viewed with suspicion by collectors, and for good reasons, because I'd say a huge amount are repro.
I've seen only one or two L/16 marked EK2 spangen that I'd painfully accept as good. EK1 L/16 spangen, the same... I've seen only one or two I'd regard as OK. Now I see 10+ for sale within the last month. But yep, the 'bin theory' could be true.
I do believe S+L produced spangen, but in very limited numbers.
I also believe that it took S+L a long time to accept that the war was over
regards
jon

Hello

Shame on you Jon. Surely you aren't implying that S&L might have made WW2 items AFTER the war ended and the swastika was outlawed.

I suppose it's a bit like the debate over the DKs. Did S&L make them during the war or only for a very short period, or only afterwards to meet the burgeoning collector market demands?

In respect of bars to the Iron Cross, interestingly on page 389 of Gordon Williamsons 'The Iron Cross of 1939' there is a photo of a page from a 1940 Steinhauer und Luck catalogue, (see scan below - I hope Gordon doesn't mind me using it here). Gordon is using it to show that certainly in the early part of the war S&L made and sold Oak Leaves to Knights Cross, but clearly visible on the page is a 1st and 2nd class bar to the Iron Cross, as well as a 'Prinzen' size one, and what appears to the small version for a ribbon bar. So it would appear that S&L did make and sell these bars from early on in the war. Given how prolific a manufacturer of all manner of Third Reich medals, awards etc S&L was, it's not unreasonable to believe that these zinc ones could be very late war production, or rejects never recycled and eventually sold on to collectors. I also accept that they could be post war made using the original dies and simply poorly finished. The problem is, how will anyone ever know? As you said earlier, the example here does conform to what is accepted as war time produced S&L bars.

Regards
David

[tinmantis]

of course! the S+L catalogue!
a friend of mine has one, I'll try to get a good scan
regards
jon

[Dietrich Maerz]

Here is the Spange from the S&L catalogue.

[tinmantis]

Thanks Dietrich, I'd never thought of looking at the catalogue before, doh
very interesting, and does resemble the spange we're talking about.
while we're at it, do you have time to post the EK2 spange and the minis?
regards
jon

[AlikN]

On picture from that catalog the eagle's left wing is shorter too.