KC Question

[Dietrich Maerz]

...I certaily agree on this one.
But don't you agree it's rediculous look for photographic evidence of a 935 4 cross,...how can you determine this type from a picture?
Pieter.

That's exactly my point! But you surely will also agree (since you have done it several times) that certain cross types can be determined by pictures. So in this case it seems clear to me that this is not a S&L. Even if it would be one (which it isn't) it could as well be a flawed 800.

This is not about the legitimacy of the 935-4. This is about the 'stated' fact that a 935-4 was awarded in October 1944. Still a nice group and still a genuine 935-4, but not his original awarded cross IMHO.

[Dietrich Maerz]

It was this same effect that gave rise too the belief that so called "Rounders" were seen in wartime photos...Jimmy

Not quite true.

Nobody ever tried to justify a picture of a Zimmermann or K&Q to be a Rounder. It was always about the rounded Juncker that looked like a Rounder.

Here in this case the complication goes one step further. Not only has it to be a S&L (which it isn't) it also has to be marked 935-4 (or maybe 800-4 - if you want to believe that). This is a far stretch compared to the Rounder-issue.

But people believe what they want to believe or what they are told to believe. So if you want to believe that this group is the definitive proof for an awarded 935-4, that's just fine.

[Dave Kane]

The loop isn't the same either. The photo shows a R/twist while the 935/4 is a L/twist.

I have all the confidence in the world that the S&L 935/4 are period BUT it is not supported by the photograph in this offering.

[Kevin V.]

As shared by several other collectors in previous threads, you can identify a S&L , Juncker, K&Q or another maker but not how it is marked.
Even if he is wearing a S&L we can never ever be sure it is a 935/4 or the cross should show certain characteristics of wear that we can clearly determine it is the same cross.

That the 935 /4 was produced during the war I am sure referring to the vets who brought these pieces from Schloss Klessheim.

sincerely

[Kevin V.]

]I never ever said that the 935-4 are post[/B] war. And you know that.

All I'm saying here (and everywhere else) is that if somebody 'states' something it is by far not true. Live is not that easy.

My comment was in regards to "provenance" of 935-4 and 800-4 and the hasty deduction made from that.

The cross the soldier shows in the "935-4 group" is not an S&L. Now this is the second time a "935-4" group comes up where it doesn't seem to hold water. That does not speak well for this model in regards to actual awarded crosse.

Do you think they were produced postwar also ?
sincerely

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Do you think they were produced postwar also ?
sincerely

....ooops here we go....

[Dietrich Maerz]

Do you think they were produced postwar also ?
sincerely

How would I know?

But the popular believe must go like this: They were produced pre May 1945 and since S&L was a very honest company at that point in time they decided to:

- continue to produce after the war (a fact)
- threw all already marked cross frames away or melted them down
- pressed new frames
- BUT marked them differently, "935" for instance.

This is what one has to believe if one also wants to believe that every 935-4 was made during the war.

The only thing I know and believe is that 935-4 were in Klessheim. Were ALL made in Klessheim?

[Pieter Verbruggen]

I would I know.

But the popular believe must go like this: They were produced pre May 1945 and since S&L was a very honest company at that point in time they decided to:

- continue to produce after the war (a fact)
- threw all already marked cross frames away or melted them down
- pressed new frames
- BUT marked them differently, "935" for instance.

This is what one has to believe if one also wants to believe that every 935-4 was made during the war.

The only thing I know and believe is that 935-4 were in Klessheim. Were ALL made in Klessheim?

...are we so sure they had a stock of lose frames?...weren't the crosses assembled immediately?.....
Look at the recent Deschler find, all nice asembled KVK in the proper cases, not a box with pins hooks and unfinished crosses...

We do not know and probably we never will...
Pieter.

[Dietrich Maerz]

...are we so sure they had a stock of lose frames?...weren't the crosses assembled immediately?.....
Pieter.

Okay, ALL were stamped, marked, assembled and ALL were send to the PKZ and from there they ALL went down to Klessheim. That's the theory then.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Look at the recent Deschler find, all nice asembled KVK in the proper cases, not a box with pins hooks and unfinished crosses...

Not by any stretch can you compare the KVK with a Knights Cross. Complete different method of awarding, storing and distribution.

[Kevin V.]

Okay, ALL were stamped, marked, assembled and ALL were send to the PKZ and from there they ALL went down to Klessheim. That's the theory then.

That is what I believe. but hey I am still a youngster and in the learning process.

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Not by any stretch can you compare the KVK with a Knights Cross. Complete different method of awarding, storing and distribution.

...perhaps someone could ask S&L formal company members if they produced them after the war???
Pieter.

[Kevin V.]

...perhaps someone could ask S&L formal company members if they produced them after the war???
Pieter.

Maybe that has been done already.

[Dietrich Maerz]

...perhaps someone could ask S&L formal company members if they produced them after the war???
Pieter.

You would be very interested in the content of an interview between a very esteemed and well connected collector and Mr. Preuss, the long time VP of Steinhauer and Lueck....

So, to answer your question: Yes, the question has been asked!

[Pieter Verbruggen]

You would be very interested in the content of an interview between a very esteemed and well connected collector and Mr. Preuss, the long time VP of Steinhauer and Lueck....

So, to answer your question: Yes, the question has been asked!

...I know that's why I posted the question, I know the answer they "stated",but the forum would like to know it too I believe...
Pieter.