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**Jørgen E** · 03-05-2007, 06:24 PM

No way!

**Marc Garlasco** · 03-05-2007, 07:26 PM

Looks like dark chocolate - hopefully Belgian! YUMM!!!

Marc

**Vic** · 03-06-2007, 02:09 AM

THanks!!!

**DavidM** · 03-06-2007, 02:22 PM

Hello

That piece, to me anyway, just doesn't have the quality or workmanship that you usually associate with an original wartime RK. Nor can I find anything that even remotely matches it. And what about the die flaws that seem to be evident virtually all the way round the rim, (the lines that look as if they are joining all the beading together).So I would agree with the others and say it is a fake.

What I am more concerned about is the fact that a dealer such as Kai Winkler would peddle this rubbish. What is going on out there, as every week nearly all the dealers seem to be pushing out fakes. This is a very worryingtrend.

Regards
David

**Dietrich Maerz** · 03-06-2007, 02:26 PM

For sure we all don't know what has been made during the 3rd Reich. I think we can agree on that.

However, there are a set of known and documented manufacturers of the Knights Cross in the period between 1939 and 1945.

This cross is not one of those. Whoever buys this will have great troubles to pass this on to another collector as a period made cross.....

I strongly advise any possible buyer - especially due to the money involved - only to buy a piece that can be clearly indentified as made by a legitimate manufacturer.

**StefanK.** · 03-06-2007, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

This cross is not one of those.

What makes you so sure, Dietrich?

Stef

**all1knew** · 03-06-2007, 02:32 PM

Hello,

Does not looking like an award that came out of the Third Reich.

William Kramer

**Nico C** · 03-06-2007, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by DavidM View Post

Hello

That piece, to me anyway, just doesn't have the quality or workmanship that you usually associate with an original wartime RK. Nor can I find anything that even remotely matches it. And what about the die flaws that seem to be evident virtually all the way round the rim, (the lines that look as if they are joining all the beading together).So I would agree with the others and say it is a fake.

What I am more concerned about is the fact that a dealer such as Kai Winkler would peddle this rubbish. What is going on out there, as every week nearly all the dealers seem to be pushing out fakes. This is a very worryingtrend.
Regards
David

Indeed, David.
And this is not the first time that Kai sells some post-war items for wartime pieces

.

**Dietrich Maerz** · 03-06-2007, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by StefanK. View Post

What makes you so sure, Dietrich?
Stef

I don't know what you mean? Do you see any remote resemblance with Juncker, S&L, 3/4 ring, Zimmermann, Schickle or K&Q?

**StefanK.** · 03-06-2007, 03:04 PM

Hi all,

i really do see any resemblance to other "wartime" crosses. This cross has at least much more in common with a Juncker, than a 3/4 Ring has with a K&Q. By the way, to me "resemblance" does not make a medal a fake or not.

I know that Dietrich invested very much time in researching and seeking for helpful information. Therefore his opinion is very very valuable.

The only thing i want to do is to warn everybody not to condemn something we do not know or what is uncommon.

**Dietrich Maerz** · 03-06-2007, 03:15 PM

Stef,

please read my post again!

For sure we all don't know what has been made during the 3rd Reich. I think we can agree on that.

What does it say? It says that we don't know everything!

However, there are a set of known and documented manufacturers of the Knights Cross in the period between 1939 and 1945.This cross is not one of those.

That was all I was saying. I never called it a fake or such!

Resemblance and commonality does not determine the maker. Dead nuts on makes a maker. Rounders are similiar and so are Souvals and even the Latvians...

I do not know this maker and therefore do not know whether it's real or not. That was all I was saying.

However, there are certain things one could say about that cross. Look at the extensive flawing! Either it was produced in greater quantities or the die was bad from the beginning. The copper core should point to an early manufacturer (under the assumption it is a real on...), so maybe it was a production sample. Maybe not?

Awarded in 1943, if I remember correctly. Ton's of other evidence speak agains such a thing but I will not argue.

It is -and I stand to that - not made by a known and documented manufacturer as we know them today.

**Marc Garlasco** · 03-06-2007, 03:28 PM

This is the quote of the day!

Dead nuts on makes a maker.

**StefanK.** · 03-06-2007, 04:24 PM

Dietrich,

i didn't adress you with my post but all those you were saying "fake" without any proof.

Stef

PS: Das mit den toten Nüssen musst Du mir auf deutsch übersetzen, meine Kenntnisse stoßen bei diesem Ausdruck auf ihre Grenzen

.

**Dietrich Maerz** · 03-06-2007, 04:33 PM

Stef,

the expression "dead nuts on" means as much as "haargenau" in German. So it nothing to do with deceased fruits.

These expressions with "nuts" always throws the Germans off - just like the answer by General McAuliffe to the request by the Germans to surrender Bastogne : "Nuts!" Which means as much as "Verrueckt" in German. And they didn't get and they thought he was 'nuts'!

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