333 Marked EK2.

[FW 200]

I have a question, here. Are the cores loose on any of these, or tight. Charles.

[Sonderkommando]

Hi Mike,
Totally different crosses as there are more beads on the outer arms af one cross than on the other.

Cheers,
Brett

[km-spain]

I saw a box full of EKII with 333 maker mark and with the blue packages and ribbons many years ago here in Spain, more that 150-200 medals. When I asked to the owner-dealer about them he told me that they came from France, and that somebody had found a big lot of them from an unknow French maker, if I don't remember wrong, from the south of Paris.

When you have it in your hand looks 100% original.

This is all that I know about this, and thius happends more or less 7-8 years ago, not a couple as somebody has told here.

[Adrian]

Hi Mike,
I agree with Brett, there are more beads, not only on the ends of the arms but all the way around. Also the inner corners nearest the swastika appear to be shaped differently, the 333 has more curved inner corners whereas the other example looks to be more 'pointy'.

[Pierre]

Hello,

These crosses didn't appear a couple of years ago or 7-8 years ago but in the early 80's. The stock was found in France in the area of Strasbourg (Alsace). Many antiques shops in the city had these crosses for sale all in packet with full length ribbon. At that time the rice was...12€. At that time I had bought 5 or 6 of them. They were hundreds of them....

[MH184]

It's funny how the story has turned to France over the years, I bought two of these back in the very early 1990's with the fake packets also.

At the time they were purported to have come from an Austrian hoard - pre internet days and all the big dealers of the day had the same story.

Over the years I've now heard several explanation's !!

Now as for the packets, the 'French Connection' comes in here for me !

Before I had them ink and paper 'age determined' - I stated a few concerns (i.e I thought they were fake) in regards to the packet. Upon this stories eminated about them being made in France for the German's hence the differences !

I know they have been widely distributed through France that is true certainly. But the tan and blue left hand fold packets are 101% fake.

These packets are not a copy of a genuine article either.

So you can discount the packet for a start.

[Tiger 1]

Hi Hank,
While I can't show you a Zimmerman, I do have a marked '21' (Godet) EKII, (courtesy of e-stand), which has major differences in outer flange widths, as do other examples of this make I have seen (note 3 o'clock arm - skinny or what?!!).

Regards - Danny

Danny,

Look at the width of the flange from the small step nearest the beading to the outside edge of the flange. The flange widths seem to be fairly equal all around or visually aceptable from a production point of view. Unless the mechanical Gablonzer method was used to form the frames most hand assembled frames will show evidence of hand filing to finish the flange edges after soldering.

IMO What's causing an optical illusion is that the brite burnished area is a bit narrower there and there is more frosting left on the flange itself.

Look carefully and see.

Tony

[Danny70]

Danny,

Look at the width of the flange from the small step nearest the beading to the outside edge of the flange. The flange widths seem to be fairly equal all around or visually aceptable from a production point of view. Unless the mechanical Gablonzer method was used to form the frames most hand assembled frames will show evidence of hand filing to finish the flange edges after soldering.

IMO What's causing an optical illusion is that the brite burnished area is a bit narrower there and there is more frosting left on the flange itself.

Look carefully and see.

Tony,
Thanks for taking the time to examine this one, and I do see what you are refering to, re: the outer sides of the cross. But when I mentioned the difference in the flange widths, I was refering to the entire flange. I have attached a detail of the picture of the '21' with markings showing the differences. The small red lines are both of equal size, and both are touching the edge of the beading. As you can see the line marked 'B' extends way beyond the edge of the cross.

This point was not made to support the arguement that 333 crosses are not fakes, but rather, to show that differences in flange widths were acceptable.

Regards - Danny

[olivyaya]

Hello,

These crosses didn't appear a couple of years ago or 7-8 years ago but in the early 80's. The stock was found in France in the area of Strasbourg (Alsace). Many antiques shops in the city had these crosses for sale all in packet with full length ribbon. At that time the rice was...12€. At that time I had bought 5 or 6 of them. They were hundreds of them....

Hello to all !
Digging the subject from long ago...

Pierre is absolutely right ! I live in Strasbourg, Alsace North-Eastern part of France, at the German border.
I bought mine in a small antiques shop in "rue des Frères" a narrow street behind the cathedral. I paid 90 French francs in late 1980s (1987/88 as far as I ramember) which is approx. 14 euros (US$ 10). It came with the ribbon and paper bag shown on the pictures below. The ring is "333" marked.
The seller had a few of them in a small basket. He told me they all weer originals... which of course I could not confirm due to my very little knowledge about them... but they indeed looked (and mine still does) quite nice...
I have read somewhere they could be a local production, since Alsace and Moselle were not French occupied territories by the Germans during the war but German annexed ones, returning to the "faterland" after the 1918 defeat...

[Loggie]

My Aunt bought me several at a Strasbourg antique shop between 1972-1975. I do not know the name of the shop.

[Sevrin]

Packets

There's a dealer site that's selling those blue packets as "original". So to be clear, all these that are left-folded and un-marked are bad?


Thanks!

[sanya13]

IMO Adrian is right
I already met more different mm type even the cross

""Unmarked
333
666
999
L/18 ""
and all of them the same error

[Euronymous]

In my opinion "333" is not a PKZ number. It stands for silver 333/1000°.

[Thomas E Hansen]

As I can read. This type of cross is traced back to an area in France. "The suddenly appear in a large quantities".
Question; couldn't it be possible that a lite French maker, made these crosses? Just like French made kriegsmarine badges?

[jmb]

In a previous thread about these 333 EK II I asked if someone could check if the ring was silver made.
Never got any reply...

333/1000 is a silver grade used in France and Germany.
For example pictures of currently manufactured "333" silver coins.