für raub&mord

[werner geier]

greetings,
mv-historian and non-ek expert seeks info on an ek that is said to have been produced by the soviets around the siege of leningrad as counter-propaganda item with the inscription "für raub&mord" (for robbery&murder). truth or fiction?
many thanks in advance,
werner

[George Stimson]

I think that the jury is still out on those.

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

I have no idea if there are any genuine/original examples but I have seen one of the recent Latvian repros engraved that way, so beware!

Regards
Mike K

[werner geier]

thanks.
are any pics around?

[George Stimson]

There's a picture of one on page 158 of Gordon Williamson's book The Iron Cross of 1939.

[nipperdon]

raub & mord

Order Militaria Magazin issue 54 of july 1992 addressed this issue of the russian iron crosses this article indicates much of the same information that has been published about it appears this article validates or believes the existence of this piece is correct


i have an example of it myself, quite nice and well made too. interesting piece of history

[werner geier]

thanks to you all for the info. nipperdon would it be possible to post a pic of yours?
w.

[nipperdon]

raubundmord pictures

will try, werner obtained in 93, also have article that i mentioned before.

best

don

[nipperdon]

raub und mord

werner, sorry for bad snap, had daughter fix camera for better shots.

best
don

[nipperdon]

raubund mord

back side of order

[nipperdon]

raub und mord

back of medal

[Philippe DB]

Hi guys,

Very interesting information. This story is completly new to me but the EK sure looks convincing.

On the other hand I find the quality of this EK very good taken in to account the circumstances under which it had to be made.

KR
Philippe

[James Clark]

I find this a bit implausible. It's a bit too subtle - as anyone who has seen the Soviet propaganda posters showing jackboots stomping on dead babies will know.

Also, I don't really understand the purpose - a Soviet citizen wouldn't wear it in a million years as the "punchline" is out of sight on the back! I think the fact that it looks so much like a normal Iron Cross would have meant that most people in the Soviet Union at the time wouldn't have touched it with a barge pole in case being caught in possesion of one led to being treated as a collaborator.

Or were they dropped over the German lines to make the Germans feel bad about all that robbing and murdering? Again, a little bit too soft - that sort of propaganda tended to center on treating the Iron Cross as a potential grave stone. Marking it with something like "R.I.P." and a skull would be more along the lines of what I'd expect.

[Gordon Williamson]

As far as I can recall from the OMM article, these were aimed at German troops, not Soviet citizens.
If Don has the original article maybe he can post scans. I know these came in 2nd Class versions as well.

I would expect, if they were post-war inventions, there would be a lot more of them in circulation. They seem perfectly plausible to me given who they were aimed at.

I had the chance to buy one a few years back and didn't, not through any fear it wasn't genuine, but simply because at the end of the day, it ISNT a real Iron Cross, but a Soviet propaganda "novelty", more akin to these gross and crude "Fur Kultur" cast Iron CRosses the allies made during WW1, so the concept was not new, just much better made.