Detlev 65 RK

[VIPER]

In Detlevs offering today he lists an K@Q RK with the 65 marking, The recipient was KIA in January 1942. How is this possible if the markings were not mandated until mid/late 1944. Or was the marking optional prior to 1944 and only then made mandatory. How would this impact the 935/800 4 S@L debate.............Thanks Jimmy

[Robin Lumsden]

Various theories will follow...........

Wait for it.......

Wait for it.......

Here we go................................................ ........

[DavidM]

Hello

Although the RK is a K&Q, it is always possible that the ribbon loop has been replaced, for what ever reason, with another K&Q one at some later date, perhaps because the original one was somehow damaged or lost when the recipient was killed. On the other hand it may just show that the manufacturers, or at least some of them, were using the numbers allocated to them well before 1944. As has been said, it was mandatory to use them from 1944 but there is nothing that I have seen or read that prevented manufacturers using their numbers prior to then.

Of more interest to me is how and where Detlev is coming up with all these RKs week after week, sometimes in twos and threes and all with provenance. At this rate all (approximately), 7300 awarded RKs will have been sold by Detlev shortly.

There you go Robin, you don't have to wait for it now.

Regards
David

[Gary B]

Dear David,

It is my understanding that 1-2 Knights Cross collections were recently sold and this is where Detlev is obtaining the crosses.

Gary B

[Harry]

I think that possibly they were all aquired at once, maybe from the sale of a collection, but is 'stringing them out' a bit. Other dealers choose to lump a whole batch up for sale at once..

[Darrell]

... At this rate all (approximately), 7300 awarded RKs will have been sold by Detlev shortly. ....Regards
David

Yep ... you can only imagine how many RK's have been up for sale on his site through the years.

[Nico C]

I read that about 20.000 KC's were made during the war.
So, in this tempo, it will take some years before he has offered them all....

[Dietrich Maerz]

Various theories will follow...........

Wait for it.......

Wait for it.......

Here we go................................................ ........

Here we go. Here's one (and I quote):

"Knights Cross of The Iron Cross, known makers: 4,20,64 (sic!), L/12, L/15, L52"

and another one (and I quote again):

"An insignificant number of 'duplicate' copies for private purchase by recipients were made with frames in '935' silver by the firms of C.F. Zimmermann and Otto Schickle, both of Pforzheim, and Klein & Quenzer of Idar-Oberstein, but production of these items for open sale was forbidden in 1941"

Categorically stated, not theorized. So, the cross in question is marked incorrectly (should be 64 and '935') but is a private purchase and was made before 1941.

[ChrisJ]

Mmm

Could you explain that a bit Dietrich....I'm probably a little dense this morning, but I cant understand your post clearly.....where are these quotes from ?...and why 64 ?

[ChrisJ]

K&q

Just for the record....I have a K&Q RK with attributation to Joachim Barth, with a mass of paperwork that I am very comfortable with. Barth as awarded the RK in December 1942. The loop is marked 800/65.
I have heard of others dating back to December 1942 with firm attributation (as firm as these things go).
I think there is more to this subject than just black and white.....and many grey areas lie between.
I seem to remember that the instruction from PKZ to use the numbers originally stated the mark was to be "on the loop"....perhaps that was merely formalizing what K&Q were already doing for some time.
Have fun with this one fellas !

[Dave Kane]

Here we go. Here's one (and I quote):

"Knights Cross of The Iron Cross, known makers: 4,20,64 (sic!), L/12, L/15, L52"

and another one (and I quote again):

"An insignificant number of 'duplicate' copies for private purchase by recipients were made with frames in '935' silver by the firms of C.F. Zimmermann and Otto Schickle, both of Pforzheim, and Klein & Quenzer of Idar-Oberstein, but production of these items for open sale was forbidden in 1941"

Categorically stated, not theorized. So, the cross in question is marked incorrectly (should be 64 and '935') but is a private purchase and was made before 1941.

Chris, likely a bit of 'dry humor' and indicative of poorly researched data which end up in book form...."It's in the book, so it must be correct" and as we have found over and over again it's just not true nor an absolutely reliable source.

Another one:

"A variant is known in which the corners of the frame adjacent to the swastika are rounded rather than pointed. Although several manufacturers have been theorized, no eveidence has yet arisen to allow the manufacturer of this type to be firmly identified."

And, this as late as 2002!

[Detlev Niemann]

Good morning,

I do get many KC's in, true. The reason is, that I have helped building up several very large KC collections over the last 20 years. I always tell my customers if they run into any kind of trouble, or want to change their direction of collecting that I would help or guide them as good as I can. So I get many KC's back, or help selling them off to finance something else. Many KC's or groups I have handled 2-3 or even 4 times over the last years. I have never considered KC's (in general) as rare, but as desirable and expensive.

You can compare a KC with a Porsche car. Everyone wants one, but usually you can only afford one when you are older and earn more money.

I will never understand the reason why dealers list rare items in a kind of "overkill".

Right now I'm in the process of selling a nice KC collection. Next friday I will list a very rare naval oakleave group. And the following friday, who knows ?

regards
detlev

[Albert]

... Barth as awarded the RK in December 1942. The loop is marked 800/65.
I have heard of others dating back to December 1942 with firm attributation (as firm as these things go)...

No doubt that K&Q RKs were awarded between summer 1941 and summer 1942 already.

[ChrisJ]

No doubt that K&Q RKs were awarded between summer 1941 and summer 1942 already.

.....as you will see from the picture of Joachim Barth that posted that he is a Htpm..he was promoted Major in January 1943...so the picture is definitely December 1942. I've heard of other K&Q with 65 marks on the loop from this period (as I mentioned)......more to learn here I feel.

[Robin Lumsden]

......more to learn here I feel.

Words of wisdom.
New information is continually coming to light.
What was published in good faith 20 years ago is laughable now.