Before & After. Why cleaning isn't always bad

[Santi]

Well done David, the result is stunning!

[Jon Fish]

I would not dream of diping any of my silver militaria in chemical dip,all you do is strip of the top layer of finish,and can't be good for the piece long term. If you want a quick fix and a nice 'shiny' medal then fine,otherwise let these fine items'sleep' and age naturally, I also dont personally understand how people cannot find the natural aged look sexy and appealing on their items?
Also hair drying afterwards!! , that sounds like a big no-no to me. Its a bit like washing your fishing reels in fast running water under a tap ,what you will do is drive the moisture deep in to the little gaps and recceses , as you will with a hair dryer on a medal

[Steve Campbell]

I'd rather just collect them as they come. They all have thier own character. You get some cherry ones and some rough ones. All part of it.

[Panzer Rob]

I do have to say that this EK cleaned up beautifully, but personally I would not do this to any of my crosses. I'm in the "keep 'em as you found 'em" camp and appreciate the 60+ year old patina. Is it true that a chemical dipping process actually removes a small portion of the finish???

I'm now starting to wonder if several of the "gem mint" EKII's that have hit the estand the last 6 - 12 months have in fact been "dipped" like this one

Rob

[Okrach]

Tomasz,

If a cleaned EK is 'stone mint', can an expertly restored or upgraded EK also be rated as 'stone mint'?

I am curious.

Tony

Tony

Just look at the pictures - this cross has never ever been something else but the minty one. Al what has been done to it is a bath - not repainting, restoration etc. Just CLEANING.

can an expertly restored or upgraded EK also be rated as 'stone mint'

If You knew about the restoration the answer would be NO. If You did not, You would probably be in awe what a fine item You have in Your collection (by 'expertly restored' I understand something UNDISTIGUISHABLE from original pieces.)

[Tiger 1]

Tomasz,

We will continue to disagree.

The chemical dip negated this cross from being a true 'minty' piece. The chemical dip removes the patina thru a chemical etch process. A mild one but none the less the surface has been changed from original condition. Anything that has it's original finish compromised thru intentional action by a collector or owner moves the item that much further from ever again being in true original condition.

Granted this is a hard core purist opinion. But original condition pieces will retain and increase their value much better than one that has been messed with. At least among more seasoned collectors. Carefully study the prices realised for original conditioned collectables versus the ones that have been needlessly 'improved'. I bet you will be amazed at what you find.

I have a few iron Crosses in my collection. Even the very few that approach a 'mint' condition grade show some age even when not showing signs of being worn. Anything that is at least 66 years old will show some age regardless of how it was stored and cared for. There is no getting away from this fact.

When I see a totally clean, high condition item I am not in 'awe' of it if there is no age. I generally rightfully assume that such a piece with no age has been cleaned. Some pieces that are lesser condition are often 'cleaned' up to make them more presentable and hence more salable. But they can never be brought back to 'mint' condition. Also if the fact that it has been cleaned is not disclosed by the seller then this would be cheating a less informed collector who would think he is getting something that in reality is not. Much to their chagrin when they smarten up a bit with some hard earned experience.

Personally I am turned off by this and look for better examples that have not been artificially 'improved' to add to my collection.

In some cases exceptions can be made for really rare items that may have been impaired by a cleaning in the past. My 1870 Godet EKI is one such example. It was unfortunately cleaned of some prominent patina by a previous owner. What remains around the hinge , pin catch and side hooks show that at one point it was a magnificent speciman with a full bloom of patina. Still it is a rare example of a period 1870 EKI. I would have loved to study it's original condition for the sake of improving my knowledge but that is not to be now or ever.

As for 'expertly restored' being INDISTINGUISHABLE from the original is not too much a problem for a serious student of the Iron Cross who has had the opportunity to study original unmessed with examples. The more these unmessed with pieces get played with the less original finish examples remain for dedicated collectors to study. In the long run this phenomenon of 'cleaning' and 'improving' will make any existing unmessed with examples worth much more.

If owner/collectors continue to clean, dip or in other ways 'improve' these collectables how will we ever learn what an original condition finish looks like?

We shouldn't forget that we are 'caretakers' of these items for not just future collectors but for the future itself. We have a duty to see that no unnecessary harm comes to these items in our care.

As you can see I'm passionate about collecting Iron Crosses.

All the best,

Tony

[all1knew]

Hello all,

Well, to put my two cents in......

The photo below is of my only EK_2 in my personal collection and I woudn't trade it for a "pretty" one any day of the week. I have had several over the years, but I always kept this one for myself.

These items represent history (in my eyes) and IMHO cleaning a medal takes some of this historical character away.

I will say however that the cross looks great, but to me it looked great before as well.

Our friend owns the cross and if he wants to throw it against the wall then the choice is his; whatever makes him happy.

William Kramer

[Chet Sowersby]

Bill,
Your cross looks great with no fair ammount of character lacking. If it was cleaned it would look so much for the worse.

Chet

[all1knew]

Bill,
Your cross looks great with no fair ammount of character lacking. If it was cleaned it would look so much for the worse.

Chet

.......I wouldn't dare.

Bill

[Okrach]

We shouldn't forget that we are 'caretakers' of these items for not just future collectors but for the future itself. We have a duty to see that no unnecessary harm comes to these items in our care.

As you can see I'm passionate about collecting Iron Crosses.

All the best,

Tony

Dear Tony,

That is a great example of disagreement Thank You for expertly argumentation. Now, my turn

You might be surprised but I can not agree more with You about the nice original patina and the brilliant shine of the past.

This is what I posted in my first post in this thread - I am not a chemist - I am an engineer and as such I know any chemical reaction DOES NOT leave the original surface unchanged (please note - unchanged not damaged) . The 'restoration' effect put me in fact in an unexpected amazement though - what can be achieved by such simple dipping is astonishing.

Some of the members posted already it shall be a free choice if one want to restore or not his items. I think it is a simple right of the owner. And noone can tell anyone what to do with his items but gives an advice.

Yes, I am 100% with You as a 'caretakers' we shall not change the items. But this is only MY private opinion and shall by no means sound like a criticism to what David did and what he has achieved.

I for one would not do that to my things... they shall show what they saw

[DavidM]

Hello

This has turned into a very interesting discussion. Clearly, there will always be those who may clean some items and those will never touch them.

I certainly don't clean everything. Not all my EKs get cleaned or 'dipped'. As for other awards and badges, I would never dream of cleaning anything like my DKiG, pilots badge etc. This would, in all probability, remove any traces of the original colouring, wash etc. The only items I will ever contemplate cleaning are the EKs, especially the high silver content ones. As has been mentioned already, genuine silver and high silver content items, if left uncleaned, will deteriorate over time and can become damaged beyond salvation.

Therefore, if cleaning such items prevents their deterioration and preserves them, my job as a caretaker of items of history is fullfilled. Further, if something is very heavilly covered in a thick patenia, how can you study the original finish ? The answer is that you can't, because the original surface can't be seen.

Any solider going on parade with a tarnished, dirty medal would be pulled up pretty quickly, and would find themselves in trouble. Soliders in all armys do clean their medals and awards ready for parade. Granted, some of the modern awards and badges don't require any cleaning due to the use of 'stay bright' materials, but certainly before, during and after WW2 soliders cleaned and polished cap badges, medals and awards. So whose to say that a particular EK hasn't been cleaned by it's original owner ? Especially EK1s which were worn most of the time. Again, the answer is we don't know, but I'd wager that an awful lot of these EKs have been previously cleaned by the original reciepients.

The EKs were made to be shiny. The awards and badges have to look clean and as they are meant to on parade. I'm sure that some will have a couple of EKs, one for daily wear and one for parade, but the majority won't have. So the strong likelyhood is that a lot of the EKs out there now have previously been cleaned, and despite this people still buy them and they still look good.

Finally, a sympathetic, careful cleaning done with the sole intent of preventing damage and, or deterioration of an item isn't 'changing' or 'altering' it, it is simply restoring it to it's original state. It is in keeping with the notion that we are merely temporary caretakers of these items, and are ensuring they are preserved for future generations. Allowing the 'patenia' to build up will eventually destroy the EK, losing it to future generations - and with a really heavy build up you wouldn't be able to properly examine it anyway. On the basis of some arguements put forward here, ancient sculptures and artifacts, centuries old, fragile paintings would all be left acumulating dirt and grime - patenia - without any thought of cleaning them. The reality is, in order to preserve them, museums and so forth have specialist restoration departments who do clean and restore paintings and artifacts. Is the Mona Lisa no longer the Mona Lisa because it has been cleaned and had restoration work carried out on it ?

Just my thoughts.

Regards
David

[Robert P.]

David wrote:
The only items I will ever contemplate cleaning are the EKs, especially the high silver content ones. As has been mentioned already, genuine silver and high silver content items, if left uncleaned, will deteriorate over time and can become damaged beyond salvation.


In reply, I'd like to add that the very costly silver polish (paste) has a very mild abrasive in it. I buy the best to clean my silver serving pieces and silverware with. Like you said, cleaning a 800+ silver content EK is one thing. But when you start introducing this abrasive material to clean your neusilber or altsilber EK's there can only be damage to the lightly silvered frames. And there is no doubt that there will be damage to the crosses using a chemical cleaner as well. There is a cross on the e-stand right now that I believe was dipped. The perfectly good core has turned to a dull gray, and the frame looks like chrome. This is the part that really eats at me - the fact that some EK's are being damaged for good. How do we call this restoration?

Robert

[johnrtse]

There is a product that will probably keep this EK looking fantastic for many years to come- Renaissance Wax. I can't believe that someone hasn't already suggested it.

It has been used for ages to preserve and protect delicate artifacts in the best museums and collections in the world.

The EK looks absolutely fantastic, by the way!

[bnz. 42]

I did clean one of my EKs with TarnX (only once I will never again) and I was impressed with the result at first. But one-two months later (very, very quickly) the cross turned dark again with ugly, unnatural "all-colors-of-rainbow" patina. These chemical solutions not just "eat" the surface - they change it as well on some molecular level.

[Robert P.]

I did clean one of my EKs with TarnX (only once I will never again) and I was impressed with the result at first. But one-two months later (very, very quickly) the cross turned dark again with ugly, unnatural "all-colors-of-rainbow" patina. These chemical solutions not just "eat" the surface - they change it as well on some molecular level.

Yes, it's called 'acid-etching.' I worked in a chemical plant (Chrevron & Unocal) until I retired. We dealt with a lot of caustic and acidic acids and acid solutions. The acids seemed to eat away at the exotic and common stainless steel alloy piping quicker than they did the mild steel or black iron piping. Stainess steel (304L, 304, 308, 316L, 318, Carp 20, etc, etc) has a lot of nickel in it's alloy makeup. AND so does 'German silver.' I can't scream this loud enough..."Stay away from these chemicals!" There are a lot of recesses between the frame and the iron core of the EK's to trap these acid solutions. Non-neutralized, they can eat away at precious and expensive EK's in no time, and the damage is totally irreversible. And how do you really know if you have removed every trace of chemical when you flush with water? After you clean the cross, smell it. If there is ANY odor to the cross at all, acid is still present. You can never get all of it out of the pours of the metals. And the mixture of H20 is more dangerous than just the acid itself. The H20 is the catalyst to start the oxidation process. Scary business. I'd rather play with a rattlesnake than mess with my EK's.

Robert