S&l 800/4 Rk... Interesting!!!

[Brian S]

So let's recap;

Former factory workers' brains are too adled to recall the past.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Ah, Brian, you have such a nice way of painting black and white

That's not what I said at least.

What I mean is this: An 86 year old worker says "Yes, we did the 935-4 in 1946". Would this be accepted as definite proof?

[Brian S]

If I still lived over there I'd go after as many of those retired workers as possible. Imagine the possibility these people took home 'trinkets' from the factory which they still possess. Ah, the carrot is out there...

[Mike P.]

"He even mentioned that they used "935" because it was close to the Sterling Silver and that that just sold better to the British soldiers (which were the occupation force in Luedenscheid)"

I wouldn't totally discount what Mr. Preuss said . Since he was the VP of Sales , he was involved with and concerned about the Marketing of his products ....and if 935-4 helped him sell something ...I'm sure any Salesman , even a 90 year old one would remember that angle. By the sounds of it , some of the answers we need could be in England.
If the 935-4's were produced for the British Soldiers Souvenirs ....then it would make sense that England would have had a much higher ratio of them turning up.

[ChrisJ]

"There's still so much to find out. And it is so easy to condemn everything that does not fit a narrow view. However, it is far better to be cautious than brave, especially with the S&L B-types."


I concur completely.

OK...agreed ..we are all on the same page

[ChrisJ]

"He even mentioned that they used "935" because it was close to the Sterling Silver and that that just sold better to the British soldiers (which were the occupation force in Luedenscheid)"

I wouldn't totally discount what Mr. Preuss said . Since he was the VP of Sales , he was involved with and concerned about the Marketing of his products ....and if 935-4 helped him sell something ...I'm sure any Salesman , even a 90 year old one would remember that angle. By the sounds of it , some of the answers we need could be in England.
If the 935-4's were produced for the British Soldiers Souvenirs ....then it would make sense that England would have had a much higher ratio of them turning up.

Then why not mark them 925 ?

But Gentlemen....British sterling silver is of 925 grade, but is not marked "925"...this is a continental system to which the GB did not adopt. Sterling silver and assay marks only appear on GB silver pieces....a 925, 800, 935 or 900 would be equally meaningless to the occupation troops (IMO). ...as would indeed a 4 mark....

[Brian S]

Wouldn't have to matter to the occupation troops Chris. S&L was still in their minds '4'. The silver mark was what the silver mark was. Maker's mark wasn't for the benefit of the troops.

[Mike P.]

I agree ..the "4" wasn't for the Troops .. Since producing TR Awards was illegal ..If there was ever an investigation and issue , S&L could easily claim that these were leftover stock and that "4" would lock it in as one of their products...the same could be said for the 800-4.
But , we're all just guessing here ...there are way too many unanswered questions and I'd put more faith in Dietrich's approach and our continuing the search ...rather than trying to create an easy explanation that fits today.

[Brian S]

Exactly, find the workers, you find the proof. It's not forensic.

[Dave Kane]

The techs from '45 through '65 are likely resting in peace BUT for those who are bound and determined to legetimize these POST WAR Crosses why not contact possible relatives?



Let's look to the surviving family.... However, don't hold your breath as the grandson of a Master Craftsman for Juncker auctioned his family albums for pennies in the last few months via the internet

[Leroy]

Dave,
Do you believe that studies of cores as well as frosting and lacquering
techniques would be useful?

[Dave Kane]

Without doubt Leroy!!! Supposed provenance, stories, vet buys, garage sales et al mean nothing. The real eveidence is in the STUDY....and proved by today's science.

In an abstract way it's already proved by the dealers and (believers) in these Crosses.....look at the prices!!

[Leroy]

I propose, then, the following lines of study, with specificity to each known manufacturer of the RK:
1. Cores, with comparisons of swastika and date forms and heights, as well as paint texture;
2. Frosting (or the lack thereof) by type and possible period (I have a personal THEORY, by example, that chemical bath frosting was earlier than "painted");
3. Lacquer (or the lack thereof). By example, are there RK's with only lacquer, and if so, when and why was this done?; and
4. Exact sizing and font types of silver and maker stamps. Will we find that S&L used 6 different style "800" stamps and K&Q used 3?
Much of this information is scattered throughout the multiple RK threads already on this forum, but there is no real organization or time period identification to this material. In the end, we could all have a very useful matrix which, when blended in with frame data being compiled by Dietrich, could almost produce a reference "chart" for us. It would not, and should not ever, be considered as a final or absolute document, but it might give us a better way to look at this. Personal attacks accomplish nothing and are the reason so many old line collectors seem to have abandoned this forum in recent months. WE NEED FACTS, NOT OPINIONS.

[Sal Williams]

The techs from '45 through '65 are likely resting in peace BUT for those who are bound and determined to legetimize these POST WAR Crosses why not contact possible relatives?



Let's look to the surviving family.... However, don't hold your breath as the grandson of a Master Craftsman for Juncker auctioned his family albums for pennies in the last few months via the internet

I agree with you Dave.
best, Sal

[Dave Kane]

Thanks Sal, and just like visor caps.............those that were 'reupholstered' were accepted as REAL until someone OUTED the crap some 20 years later and even then were asked to PROVE it!

The 60's fakes were suddenly introduced as 'PERIOD' and yet again challenged to prove that they weren't original..yet in the long run the truth prevailed and as typical the pushers disappeared in a huff!!!