S&l 800/4 Rk... Interesting!!!

[Dietrich Maerz]

1) S&L RKs with an unflawed A type frame with either a magnetic or a none magnetic core, stamped 800, or with no stamp at all are ok.

I have yet to see an A-Type with non-iron core, but if so: Yes


2) S&L RKs with a flawed A type frame, magnetic centre and either the stamped '800' mark or no mark at all are also ok, and possible later war models.

Flawed A-Types are late war, yes. I have never seen an unmarked A-Type so far.


3) Anything with a B type frame, incused marks and the dent row, whether magnetic or not, are post war productions by S&L for collectors etc.

No, that's to broad a statement that I cannot support. At this point in time, I believe that the 935-4 is pre-45 based on the Klessheim hort.


5) Anything marked '800', '935' etc with the '4' are post war produced pieces.

At this point in time the consens is only for the "935' to be definetely postwar. I consider the 800, 800 incuse, 800-4 in a 'dangerous grey area' and - based on the dent row - as at least post 935-4


But please realise, that is just my opinion, based on my interpretation of the physical evidence.

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

As an aside it may be interesting to learn where, when and by whom Hauptmann Stiegert was captured / surrendered to and when he was released....

[Brian S]

Dietrich, think, please. You dismiss arguement with what you think is your conclusion. I am not discounting A and B types. This is a fact. The die is repaired... It is now a B type. Remember the discussions on how many frames could be struck in just a few hours? Literally hundreds and hundreds. Which frames go out the door first Dietrich? The first ones struck early in the day or week on the freshly repaired die? Are they mixed up?

So many neat little 'factoids' about a process we know nothing about.

The die was repaired, frames were struck by the many many hundreds in what could have been a single day.

[Brian S]

At this point of the story I personally fall back on the physical evidence.

It's a DIE CHARACTERISTIC. It is evidence of a DIE FLAW.

It is NOT evidence of anything other than that!

You have NO evidence of time of cross assembly!

And NOW all provenance comes under the scrutiny of the 'gang', the 'gang' says with a sneer it ain't so, prove it.

[Brian S]

.... rare,nice, and original pre-war, S&L munufactured Knights Cross...but so what.... just my two cents, dollars to some people...

Pieter " a convinced multiple S&L die collector"

Listen to a few of the people who have been around for a long time, a LONG time. They don't easily put their faith in junk.

This is about believing a neat little 'engineering' approach to a situation nothing more complex then, "hey, Max, go to the pile and pull me 50 frames for assembly." Not, "hey Max, go to the pile and pull the first 50 frames minted yesterday out of the 800 in the pile." "You know, Max, they will be scrutinizing these later, and we have to be careful."

[Dietrich Maerz]

Brian,

crosses were ordere by the PKZ. They were made based on firm orders with money behind it. This was not like producing ammunition as fast as one could!

It took the A-type die about 5 years to deteriorate! Now this 'wear' process is cramped into several month, 8 at the most. I mean the wear process of the dent row.

I record only what I know and see. It is my opinion, that's all.

If or when you can come up with solid evidence that the 800-4, incuse 800, regular 800 and 935 are pre 45 I'm more than happy!

For me, they are in a grey area. And a worn ribbon on a 800-4 with a COA doesn't change my thinking a little bit.

... but that's just me.

[Brian S]

Many good thoughts here Chris!

Yes...but surely lateral thinking in assessment of the evidence and outcome of the research is valid and meaningfull.

Yes! The evidence as it's called is used to produce a straightline conclusion, no lateral thinking.

I have to add thought, that the horrible incused "800" stamps that we have seen on the "B" type are quite damning.....

Those crosses do just plain suck...

I believe that when the S&L dies began to fail, they did so rapidly. I've notice over the years that 1945 awarded pieces (A type) often have the flaw on the 3 o'clock arm between 7th/8th bead down but evident only on one frame side.

How rapidly? If a thousand frames struck in a day or a week for stock, could have the very badly failing die failing literally in a day or a week. The 'spill' could easily have worn down in a single day.

I have one such example awarded in March 1945, and have had two others with convincing provenance ....and assuming that it was produced in mid/late 1944 my guess is that the 935/4 series was really at the tail end of production....late 1944/1945.

And who can say the provenance is bad? But, no, the writers of the theory would have us believe it more convincing the vet headed to S&L's backdoor for a cross in 1959 because it's more conducive to the 'evidence'. Vets are bad when vets don't add up to the theory.

The failure of the "B" type followed the same rapid collapse it appears.

Yes, perhaps a day or a week.

I note that in Bowen's book on page 193 he lists RK #5 and 23 as a 935, and cross 39 as 935/4 (these are crosses in the hands of recipients that he had viewed).

Ah, but Bowen is an author, and if you haven't noticed, authors don't last long here.. I would rather now change the slogan from Publish or Perish to Publish and you Shall Perish..

We will get there in the end .....lets keep plugging away !

Not without some old guy from S&L who worked there and could clear this all up... If I were there I'd post an ad looking for someone from the 50's or 60's who could clear this up.

On the die flaw issue, that is all we disagree on, the rest is all good thinking and thought Chris.

[Brian S]

Brian,

crosses were ordere by the PKZ. They were made based on firm orders with money behind it. This was not like producing ammunition as fast as one could!

And on this you are completely wrong. You confuse ORDERS with PRODUCTION. Think... You are the producer, you produce as you can what you can when you can. If the die is repaired, you know orders are coming, next week, looks good, press out a thousand dies and await the order. The order is for DELIVERY Dietrich, you confuse the ORDER FOR DELIVERY with some of proclamation about when S&L could produce and store the frames and cores.

It took the A-type die about 5 years to deteriorate! Now this 'wear' process is cramped into several month, 8 at the most. I mean the wear process of the dent row.

Of this you have no proof that I have read. You confuse delivery with production. You confuse awarding of a cross with production of a cross. Wasn't it YOU that said production did not occur on a one by one basis waiting for an order to produce a single cross for a single vet in the field? If you didn't say it, you should have...

I record only what I know and see. It is my opinion, that's all.

If or when you can come up with solid evidence that the 800-4, incuse 800, regular 800 and 935 are pre 45 I'm more than happy!

I have no faith in the incuse 800. No faith. But I have no more PROOF in my feelings than you do. That's just plain common sense to me that those crosses are at the top of the bin on a 10,000 day run and that's way too out there for me.

For me, they are in a grey area. And a worn ribbon on a 800-4 with a COA doesn't change my thinking a little bit.

That's entirely harsh. Why don't you ask the man where he got the cross... Rather critiical of you to diss the man because his cross doesn't fit your theory.

... but that's just me.

And we love you man!

[Brian S]

And we love you man!

Time for a pause and a little of that brokeback mountain love.

[Dietrich Maerz]

The failure of the "B" type followed the same rapid collapse it appears.

Yes, perhaps a day or a week.

Now that's streching it! The first die took 5 years to collapse, the same repaired one went down in days!

So in those few days S&L cramped out all the frames to do the 935-4, 800-4, 800, incuse 800, 935, early 57 and very late unmagnetic, non silver flawed ones.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Time for a pause and a little of that brokeback mountain love.

It eludes me what this remark has to offer to the discussion!

But you are right, let's stop it here before it deteriorates even more!

Only one more remark: You do not know what proof I have and do not have!

[Brian S]

The die was cracked and you know that. Repair was made but what extent? Die repair materials that were meant to last weren't yet invented, not until the late 50's. So yes, I believe the die was fixed for a short term fix and that short term could have been a week or a month.

And, Dietrich, the stamps were applied AFTER the die stamping. Nicht?

So take a hundred frames for assembly and THEN you stamp the frames.

And please don't continue to insult my intelligence by bringing up the incuse 800's. Those could very well have been done in the 70's or 80's or whenever by whoever. I've expressed my lack of faith in those but I won't begin to try to put a time on them. I think they could be done by the owner of the die after S&L but I don't know? They just aren't up to standards.

[Brian S]

Only one more remark: You do not know what proof I have and do not have!

So you're holding back? Letting us all prattle on while you hold the cards close to the vest to come forward at the last moment with "the proof".

I'm done...

[Dietrich Maerz]

And please don't continue to insult my intelligence by bringing up the incuse 800's.

So the incuse 800 are bad, but the incuse 800-4 are good?

[gregM]

"not without some old guy from S&L who worked there..."
Has anyone ever attemped to do this or to make any
contact with someone who might know the answers?

I do not own a RK and with prices the way they are,
I will most likely will never own a RK. However I do follow these
discussions and it seems to me that trying to go right to the
soarse would be a good idea. Some of you guys own a dozen
or more RKs. That is a big investment and with that kind of
money involved I think it would be at least worth a try to find
an old employee. The investment of a few hundred Euro might
bring some surprizing results and put an end to a lot of this
dickering----or not.