Opinion on my KC

[WalterB]

Thank you very much, Mssrs. ChrisJ, George Stimson and Gordon Williamson. I am glad to hear that I got lucky this time around...Thanks to this forum I think I will be able to make better informed decisions in the future.

Best regards,

AlteRatte

[WalterB]

I have one additional question regarding L/12 KCs. What is the distinction between "lazy 2s" and L/12 KCs with respect to being award pieces? I was under the impression (misimpression?) that lazy 2s were typically the KCs that were officially awarded and that the L/12s were private purchases. I have also encountered some information that indicates that some L/12s were actually also officially awarded. With regards to my L/12, I was told that such piece was officially awarded and was not a private purchase. Supposedly, my L/12 was awarded on or around 1942. Is this consistent with your understanding? Thanks in advance for your valuable input.

Best regards,

AlteRatte

[RoyA]

Excellent textbook Juncker, AlteRatte...and the hanger is just fine. The orange color of the ribbon is typical for early Juncker Knights Crosses. IMO, the weight could come in anywhere from 29-34 grams. The Juncker die characteristics are perfect.

[Dave Kane]

One couldn't ask for more!
John

[Gordon Williamson]

The L/12 and Lazy 2 issue has been covered several types but in a nutshell, all "2" marked Juncker RK were definitely official award pieces. L/12 pieces were intended as private purchase pieces but when sale of them was banned they had to be handed in to the Ordenskanzlei and some were then used as official awards.

So, "2" is always an official award, but L/12 could be an official award or a private purchase piece.

[FrankS]

In regards to the statement that „2“ marked Junckers KCs are definitely award pieces I have to repeat my statement from the thread --- Junckers Knights Crosses with „L“ mark ---


Lets say a KC winner ordered an additional KC from the Ordenskanzlei in 1944 (cost in 1944 was 16,- Reichsmark) or he ordered a free of charge replacement KC for his lost award KC, which was lost due to some duty related actions. They probably sent him whatever they had in stock at that time, for example a „lazy 2“ KC, or do you suppose that the Ordenskanzlei kept an extra stack of L/12 „intended for sale“ KCs in 1944?

Would that replacement KC „lazy 2“ (free of charge or bought) be an awarded RK?

To stay close to the other phrase we could call it „intended for award“ KC.

If you don’t get the KC directly from the KC winner (please no remarks about switched KCs by collectors/thieves) or it is somehow water tight attributed there is no way of telling if a KC was ever:
- really awarded
- bought or received as replacement
- never left the factory or the Ordenskanzlei

The most important part is that yours/our KCs are original and all extra information (recipient, additional material etc.) is a welcomed bonus.


Frank

[Gordon Williamson]

Okay then, if we want to be pedantic,

all "2" marked Juncker Crosses were manufactured as, and intended as official award pieces, but 2 marked pieces may also have been supplied as official replacements in the same way as any other country will supply official replacements where appropriate.

all L/12 pieces were manufactured as and intended as private sales pieces to be bought over the counter at retail outlets, but some were later added to government stocks and used as official awards.

Of course all that matters is that a Juncker piece is genuine, and if it makes no difference to an individual whether his piece was manufactured as a retail sales piece as opposed to an official award then thats fine.

No matter how much we argue however, there is to many collectors a subtle but distinct difference between a piece which was intended as an "over the counter" retail sales piece and one which was without question manufactred and supplied to the Ordenskanzlei as an official award, and either supplied as an official award, or as an official replacement supplied through, not a retail shop, but official channels.

There is simply no way of knowing, unless an L/12 piece comes with cast iron provenance, that it was an used as an official award, but anyone with a "2" can be absolutely 100% certain that he has an official award piece.
Original "2" marked pieces will always be in greater demand than an L/12.

So, I stand by my statement
"all "2" marked Juncker RK were definitely official award pieces".

Note that I said "official award pieces", not "officially awardED pieces". There is a difference. The important fact is the word "Official".

[Pieter Verbruggen]

L/12 .......2

In the last few years of my more than 25 years of collecting there has never been such discussion between the L/12 marked and the 2 marked pieces.
I will give you my opinions on this based upon years of handling Knights Crosses.

-The very early Juncker pieces which were awarded where non-iron nickle framed crosses WITHOUT any markings. Awarded after the Polish campaign.

-Early silver framed iron crosses are found with 800, 800 + dot, or 800 L/12.

-Later ones L/12 800.

People are correc when saying that initially L/12 marked crosses are ment for retail purposes.
But we may not forget that the retail of KC was forbidden after a very short time. So the retail of L/12 KC was very limited. The remaining Juncker stock( and NOT only L/12 marked crosses were send to the governement).
So I think when you have a L/12 marked cross, the chance you have it is an official awerde piece is MUCH bigger(95%) thanit is a retail piece. Simply look at the historical known awarded pieces, the are almost all L/12.
Of course even if they did only sell "ONE" L/12, you will never know if the one you have isn't that particular one.
-The lazy 2 KC are (this is my opinion, but agreed by a lot of experienced people in the KC field) 1944 made croses.
-The last series are the "micro "2

Documented awarded lazy 2 or micro 2 are very rare, as most of them were found at the Schloss KLESSHEIM at the end of the war.

To me the L/12 crosses can be considered as AWARDED crosses, the chance it is a privat purchased one is minimal.

Pieter.

[Gordon Williamson]

Perhaps the chances of an L/12 being private purchase are small, but still there (all in all, private purchase of any RK by whatever maker, must be small, I know of only a handful of Ritterkreuzträger who say they bought an extra piece), which is why I carefully stressed the word that the L/12s were intended . for private resale. The reality that many were awarded as offical award pieces has never been seriously contested.

As Pieter correctly points out, even if only ONE L/12 was bought over the counter, then there is no way of knowing that any L/12 Cross you encounter isn't that privately purchased, non-awarded cross.

I also specifically stressed that the "2" marked Crosses were official awards, as opposed to officially "awardED".
Whether a "2" marked Cross was awarded, or simply picked up after the end of the war from stores, it is an official award, never intended as anything else. Any L/12 will always have the question mark hanging over, no matter how slight, that it may have been a privately purchased piece.


In any case, as has already been agreed, the oly thing that really matters is whether the piece is genuine. Whether or not being unmarked, 800, 800"dot", L/12 or any of the "2" variants is most desirable will always be simply a matter of personal preference.