Zimmermann Knights Cross - burned

[Dietrich Maerz]

Hi Johan,

as I said, I can only say what I heard and what other heard. Maybe it sounds strange but stranger things have happened.

Regarding the two pieces I had from that bunch I can only say that they check out as genuine Zimmermann's compared to 'unburned' und unquestionable originals.

And that is the important thing, I guess.

Dietrich

[Jon Fish]

oh my god I feel a contoversy rearing its head !

[robert60446]

oh my god I feel a contoversy rearing its head !

Now just for fun, typical temperature of candle flame is 1300 º C. Now I don’t know what typical temperature of fire inside the building is, but melting point of Iron is 1535 º C and for silver it is 961.93 º C. Shouldn’t these crosses have at least melted frames...

[Dietrich Maerz]

The melting point for silver solder is between 730 and 800 Celsius, depending on the type. And the solder did melt as can be seen on the one picture I posted. But not the frame. Therefore, I would think that the temperature was above 730 Celsius but below 931 Celsius. And 200 degrees celsius is quite a spread.

[robert60446]

The melting point for silver solder is between 730 and 800 Celsius, depending on the type. And the solder did melt as can be seen on the one picture I posted. But not the frame. Therefore, I would think that the temperature was above 730 Celsius but below 931 Celsius. And 200 degrees celsius is quite a spread.

Yep i agree with this. It would suggest that maybe these RK's were inside some metal box (or something). It would be really great if someone could tell the whole story here...

[Don D.]

They could have been under rubble also. Remember, we flattened 80% of the urban centers. I'm sure tons of stuff was pulled from the rubble at the end of the war and salvaged or discarded as appropriate. I'm also sure there is more to be found. How about going to the Air Ministry and looking for the remains of Adolph Galland's diamonds?

[johannes post]

you are right dietrich

but al with al a very strange story.
the crosses are damaged bad but not that bad.

found afther 60 years and nobody knows the exact story.
there are ritterkreuz and groskreuzes all zimmerman .
i personnely think these are very good fake's but not that good that is why they are find (in a ruin afther 60 years ) burned.
and look how many are there al least 5 rk and 2 gk.

unbelieveble in my opinion.

regards johan

p.s. this reminds me on the mussertcross. same strange story suddenly they are everywhere.

Hi Johan,

as I said, I can only say what I heard and what other heard. Maybe it sounds strange but stranger things have happened.

Regarding the two pieces I had from that bunch I can only say that they check out as genuine Zimmermann's compared to 'unburned' und unquestionable originals.

And that is the important thing, I guess.

Dietrich

[Dietrich Maerz]

Johan,

a lot has been found over the years. I remind you of the "Russian Horde 26ers". So that is nothing new.

You say that they might be "very good fakes but not that good". They are definetely not fakes, they are made with the original die. There is not even the slightest doubt about that.

So the only 'conspiracy therory' left at this juncture would be to say that 'somebody' got hold of the original dies (Both! The core and the rim dies, plus the stamps), made new crosses and also made them look 'burned'. And made 5 or maybe even 10 or whatever. And just to sweeten the deal, some GK's are also 'forged'.

I go with the burned building at this point in time!

You say 'nobody knows the exact story'. I wouldn't say that. As it stands, nobody HERE knows the exact story, me included. So I can only examine the pieces themselves. And the two I had are made with the original dies and are originals for me.

Dietrich

[johannes post]

yes dietrich there are people who knows the right story.
but will they tell .
i follow youre (die) theorie than.
but i can't believe that they find these day's in germany a house afther 60 years being a ruin with ritterkreuzes insite.that would't be great news and would't be for sure in the collecterscommunity known .

regards johan

but

Johan,

a lot has been found over the years. I remind you of the "Russian Horde 26ers". So that is nothing new.

You say that they might be "very good fakes but not that good". They are definetely not fakes, they are made with the original die. There is not even the slightest doubt about that.

So the only 'conspiracy therory' left at this juncture would be to say that 'somebody' got hold of the original dies (Both! The core and the rim dies, plus the stamps), made new crosses and also made them look 'burned'. And made 5 or maybe even 10 or whatever. And just to sweeten the deal, some GK's are also 'forged'.

I go with the burned building at this point in time!

You say 'nobody knows the exact story'. I wouldn't say that. As it stands, nobody HERE knows the exact story, me included. So I can only examine the pieces themselves. And the two I had are made with the original dies and are originals for me.

Dietrich

[Dietrich Maerz]

yes dietrich there are people who knows the right story. but will they tell .i follow youre (die) theorie than.
but i can't believe that they find these day's in germany a house afther 60 years being a ruin with ritterkreuzes insite.that would't be great news and would't be for sure in the collecterscommunity known .

The collectors community does know about it - we are just discussing it, or don't we?
To find a house (or factory) with RK's in it is nothing else than to find a kettle full of ancient jewellery in a dug out roman house. In Italy, in Germany or even in England. There are tons and tons of unmoved rubble in Germany in the big towns where in the years after the war new buildings were erected over it in no time. And later, when new buildings are erected, things are found that were of no interest at that point in time.

It is absolutely nothing unusual to find artefacts from earlier generations buried in the earth. Just because we value the RK so much doesn't make it unlikely. How likely was it to find the dead sea scrolls?

Dietrich

[Biro]

....but i can't believe that they find these day's in germany a house after 60 years being a ruin with ritterkreuzes insite.that would't be great news and would't be for sure in the collecterscommunity known ....regards johan

Hello Johannes...

So if these textbook Zimmermans had been found in a forest somewhere in Demjansk and not a 'burned out building', then you would beleive? Two weeks of digging in Demjansk

What is it about these crosses that in your experience leads you to the assumption they are 'very good fakes, but not that good'?

regards

Marshall

[Peter Wiking]

There is nothing strange about this. The PAB below was one out of eight (8) that was found in the rubble and ruins of an old house in Germany. They were discovered when a new house was erected over the old ruins. The Zimmermann crosses in this thread does not need to be explained in my opinion. They stand on their own as "textbook" genuine Third Reich pieces.

Peter

[johannes post]

hello biro

the amont of kc's ,the type (zimmerman),the very strange story.
not for me! but if you are happy with this pieces buy them !
and why i am thinking that these are fakes or postwar build with originel die's.
i repeat "the strange story with no witnes "
and we are talking about a year ago in germany.don't forget that.
such news spread around the medal community like a oil spot.


regards johan

Hello Johannes...

So if these textbook Zimmermans had been found in a forest somewhere in Demjansk and not a 'burned out building', then you would beleive? Two weeks of digging in Demjansk

What is it about these crosses that in your experience leads you to the assumption they are 'very good fakes, but not that good'?

regards

Marshall

[Dietrich Maerz]

such news spread around the medal community like a oil spot.

I don't know when you first heard about it - I already had one of the crosses in my hand beginning of August last year, shortly after the discovery. It did spread very fast.
And I think that they were found in Germany surely beats possibly finding them in let's say California. I would consider Germany the best spot!

Now matter what, If you think they are fakes then tell us what makes you think so. Not based on the story but based on the pieces themselves.

[johannes post]

dietrich

if you are happy with this pieces buy them and love them.
i make my conclusion on this strange story: if i have said several times in this threaht.
(maybe is my bad english the problem that you can't understand my opinion).
i am maybe wrong (that must do more people ,say that they can make a mistake)but as i said it is just my opinion.
and this forum is for discusion right !

regards johan

I don't know when you first heard about it - I already had one of the crosses in my hand beginning of August last year, shortly after the discovery. It did spread very fast.
And I think that they were found in Germany surely beats possibly finding them in let's say California. I would consider Germany the best spot!

Now matter what, If you think they are fakes then tell us what makes you think so. Not based on the story but based on the pieces themselves.