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**Ludwig** · 08-01-2006, 04:15 AM

Originally posted by Frank Heukemes

Quite a touchy subject, but in my opinion all these L/15 EK1s are fakes by Floch. Schickle was located in Pforzheim (Württemberg), one of the main centers of award/badge/jewellery production. Just as important as Lüdenscheid. If you look at all Schickle made awards in their catalogue, you will find that they co-operated a lot with BH Mayer, a major Pforzheim company, which provided the designs that smaller companies of the same area (Schickle and Frank & Reif would be examples) adapted.
Being part of the Pforzheim infrastructure of makers, there was absolutely no need for Souval made parts. Souval was from Vienna/Austria, many hundreds of kilometers away.

Now for the interesting part. Souval was from Vienna and so is Floch. In addition, these L15 crosses all resemble the Floch made fakes in many details, except for the Souval parts used.

This suspicion was confirmed for me when I received the EK pictured below directly from the son of a German veteran, in a grouping with the rest of his awards/photos. It is marked L/15 and uses a setup by BH Mayer, a connection you will also find when you look at other Schickle awards, like their PAB, GAB, etc.

I have no problem with anybody believing anything else, but for me, only these Schickle crosses are original. The ones that resemble the Floch fakes are also Floch made crosses for me. Probably earlier ones when he could use up some original (?) Souval parts.

Very informative – as always!
Hope you have a nice summer, Frank!

**Frank Heukemes** · 08-01-2006, 05:58 AM

Hi guys,

Please do not take this as a "final" observation, it is merely my very personal one. I PERSONALLY think that all Schickle EK1s that do not resemble the one I posted are fakes, probably all made by Floch. This would also condemn the L15 KVKs (with "Floch type" setups), some of which have very believable fading/aging patterns.

I altered my beliefs over the past years, there was a time when I believed in those KVKs when others already said they are fakes. Maybe they knew more than I did.

It is just soemthing we cannot ignore:

1) the very strong similarity (if not conformity) to Floch fakes in the setup

2) the location of the makers which have "parts" in these L15 crosses, all in Vienna, just like Floch himself and so far away from Schickle, who clearly depended on the BH Mayer, located in the same city, as the wartime catalogue AND my posted EK1 proves.

3) The very different maker mark

Mind you again, take this as an observation basis for your own findings and beliefs. I have formed mine over the years and use them as MY PERSONAL collecting preference.

**StefanK.** · 08-01-2006, 06:36 AM

dear gentlemen,

franks theory is indeed plausible but still i am not or maybe partially of his opinion.

first of all i want to say that these crosses always will be very controversial, as we know that souval produced EK1 in huge amounts until several years after the war. they partially used the same type of frame on their postwar crosses what makes the problem much more difficult.
even detlev niemann once daclared a - in my opinion pre 45 screwback L/58 - as a postwar copy. one more proof that these crosses spreed insecurity.
some of you may ask why i always talk about souval crosses. the simple answer is that i am convinced that all crosses with marks 98, L/58, 15 and L15 are at least related to souval. in other words i think that L/15 (schickle) does not have anything in common with L15.

why do i think so? actually i have more than one reason. one the one hand both L/58 (screback!) and L15 ("souval" frame) math 100%. they do not only have the same frame but also the same core.
furthermore i want to focus on the typical "orth" - dimple - "15" crosses:
these crosses which never spread any insecurity also appear either with the same type of needle like L15 (w. souval frame) as well as with the same type of marking (vertical L15 in box). does this marking make these crosses fakes? i do not think so.

as we see we have big similarities between these two firms (souval, orth) although they partially have "wrong" markings.

frank is absolute right when he mentions the similarity between the hinge/pin setup between floch and souval (L15). if franks theory is right not only these souvals but also the good old typical "orth" - dimple - cross with marking L15 are fakes. i think it is obvious that this problem is a bit complexer than most of you ever believed.
it will be impossible to split all these crosses in the two parts "original/fake". maybe we can do with some crosses but there will be always a huge black space that includes much crosses that are impossible to assign.

my personal opinion is that the above pictured L15 cross is an original pre 45 cross by souval. it does not have anything in common with the "original" L/15 marked schickle crosses, but thats only the opinion of a 21 years old boy.....

regards,

Stefan Kuess

**Frank Heukemes** · 08-01-2006, 04:08 PM

Hi Stefan,

And why would Souival mark a pre 45 cross with L15?

**SwordFish** · 08-01-2006, 09:47 PM

So assuming my L15 pictured above is a Floch, would a period D&B box be attributed to post war stockpiles that Floch had access to?

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**SwordFish** · 08-01-2006, 09:48 PM

2.JPG (41.9 KB, 167 views)

**SwordFish** · 08-01-2006, 09:49 PM

Legitimate box.

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3.JPG (41.0 KB, 166 views)

**SwordFish** · 08-01-2006, 09:51 PM

It would seem that the cross was with this box for a very long time as the fit is as snug as a bug in a rug. I guess its plausable that somebody along the way may have acquired the box and matched it to the EK

Attached Files

sv400009.JPG (41.6 KB, 165 views)

**Frank Heukemes** · 08-02-2006, 04:17 AM

Hi Tom,

The case this EK rests in now does not say anything about the EK itself.

**StefanK.** · 08-02-2006, 05:27 AM

hi frank,

i don't know why they did mark them L15. but i know at least two other firms that marked their crosses "wrong"; one is deumer, who marked his early crosses with "11" instead of "L/11"

**skip** · 08-02-2006, 05:51 AM

Maybe, and just hypothetical here, Souval was putting crosses together for Orth. Instead of marking them 15 he marked them L15. Might even have been Orth themselves that marked them wrong.

Skip

**Kecon** · 08-02-2006, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by skip

Maybe, and just hypothetical here, Souval was putting crosses together for Orth. Instead of marking them 15 he marked them L15. Might even have been Orth themselves that marked them wrong.

Skip

What you say, Skip, about Orth marking them wrong makes more sense then anything I've heard. After all, an Orth frame is an Orth frame. Not a Souval and not a Floch. If Souval and Floch were able to make plenty of their own frames and cores, why would it be necessary for them to use someone elses.

**robert60446** · 08-02-2006, 06:47 AM

Originally posted by Kecon

If Souval and Floch were able to make plenty of their own frames and cores, why would it be necessary for them to use someone elses.

Because Floch bought large stocks of frames, cores and other parts from other manufacturers warehouses after the war…

**Peter Wiking** · 08-02-2006, 07:10 AM

The reason why some makers used parts that we are not used to can be simple.

Bombing of Pforzheim in World War II
"In an area about 3 kilometers long and 1.5 kilometers wide, all buildings were reduced to rubble. 17,600 citizens were officially counted as dead and thousands were injured. People died from the immediate impact of explosions, from burns due to burning phosphorus materials that seeped through basement windows into the cellars of houses where they hid, from lack of oxygen and poisonous gases, and from collapsing walls of houses. Some of them drowned in the Enz or Nagold rivers into which they had jumped while trying to escape from the burning phosphorus materials in the streets but even the rivers were burning as the phosphorous material floated on the water.

After the attack, about 30,000 people had to be fed by public makeshift kitchens because their housing had been destroyed. Almost 90% of the buildings in the core city area had been destroyed. Many Pforzheim citizens were buried in common graves at Pforzheim's main cemetery because they could not be identified. There are many graves of complete families. The labour office of 1942 listed 2,980 foreigners in Pforzheim, and one source puts the number of foreign laborers who died in the bombings at 498 (among them 50 Italians).

The inner city districts were severely depopulated. According to the State Statistics Bureau (Statistisches Landesamt), in the Market Square area (Marktplatzviertel) in 1939 there were 4,112 registered inhabitants, in 1945 none (0). In the Old Town area (Altstadtviertel) in 1939 there were 5,109 inhabitants, in 1945 only 2 persons were still living there. In the Leopold Square area, in 1939 there were 4,416 inhabitants, in 1945 only 13."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing...n_World_War_II

Factorys and and whole citys in Germany was bombed day and night. If producers of submarines, tanks and aircrafts had great problems, why not the award and uniform producers ?

Just my thoughts.
Peter

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An L15, EK1..what do ya thing?

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