Oakleaves!

[Dave-B]

Hmmmm!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Only-3-day-Oak...QQcmdZViewItem

[Dietrich Maerz]

Nice!

Expertise from Detlev for a Godet Type 2 (can't read whether its a or expertise), auction for something that portraits to be a Type 1. A little bit of a mix up, or?

Dietrich

[Tiger 1]

How come the front and the back cutouts don't match?

How come the DN COA being used on an obviously different set of Oaks?

How come does DN not know of this deliberate charade?

Would this be fraud?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Tony

[Ludwig]

-

I wouldn´t buy that set and I don´t think that Detlev Niemann has written a positive COA for that set.

[Paratrooper]

Hi,

unfortunately there are more and more pieces with falsified COAs on the market.

To this incident unfortunately i can say nothing. I'm not able to look at the offer because the side is closed for german users. So that I can say whether it's fraud one must could see the whole facts. I don't know like it is in america. Here in germany it is very heavy to prove a fraud. The reason is the law for the trade with used commodity.
The law is everything but customer-friendly. One must have a good lawyer so that one comes to its right.

Regards
Andreas

[Dietrich Maerz]

The bid has ended with "0 bids" so most likely a plug was pulled.

It takes a great amount of balls to put this auction up since everybody with decent eye sight could see that the oaks on the COA and the oaks presented are not the same. And if you read the description, he never said that they are for the same - but he gave the strong impression, however, counting on the (fairly usual) behaviour of people that they read into a text what they want to read out of it!

Anybody seriously interested in buying a "100% original oaks" should also be educated enough to see that the presented oaks are nowhere near the real thing.

It comes down to baiting people with the comfort of a COA. This is just the beginning!

[Ludwig]

"I don't know like it is in america. Here in germany it is very heavy to prove a fraud. The reason is the law for the trade with used commodity.
The law is everything but customer-friendly. One must have a good lawyer so that one comes to its right.

Regards
Andreas[/QUOTE]"

It´s the same thing in USA, I´m afraid.

[Detlev Niemann]

Hello,
some weeks ago a faked KC was offered at ebay.de with one of my Expertise.
It was an expertise where it is stated that the KC is a fake.
But someone has altered my expertise so that the "new" text says it#s an original KC.

So the whole legal maschinery comes into motion.
Luckily I only have to proof that my own expertise has been faked, which is easy.

But to start the legal process against the fraudist/faker I first had to pay 2000 Euros as a downpayment for the court.

So,maybe in several months time when this case will come to an end I might even lose my 2000 Euros because rthe fraudist/faker has no own money....

Whenever I see one of my expertises faked I will jump on it.

I have so far "nailed" a belgium dealer, who really ahd to make up for it, also 3 german "collectors" who by obscure ways got these "faked" expertises.

It's time consuming.

I'm always open for any hints towards "faked" expertises or similar cases.

regards
detlev

[Dietrich Maerz]

Detlev,

time to issue COA's for your COA's

It's a mess and it will become worse every day! There is no end to the ingenuity of these crooks.

Dietrich

[Vid]

Hello,
some weeks ago a faked KC was offered at ebay.de with one of my Expertise.
It was an expertise where it is stated that the KC is a fake.
But someone has altered my expertise so that the "new" text says it#s an original KC.

So the whole legal maschinery comes into motion.
Luckily I only have to proof that my own expertise has been faked, which is easy.

But to start the legal process against the fraudist/faker I first had to pay 2000 Euros as a downpayment for the court.

So,maybe in several months time when this case will come to an end I might even lose my 2000 Euros because rthe fraudist/faker has no own money....

Whenever I see one of my expertises faked I will jump on it.

I have so far "nailed" a belgium dealer, who really ahd to make up for it, also 3 german "collectors" who by obscure ways got these "faked" expertises.

It's time consuming.

I'm always open for any hints towards "faked" expertises or similar cases.

regards
detlev

Not for nothing, but if this is an issue than why not save future problems and seal the COA's in 2 sheets of laminate or plastic, the document would then be useless as it would be destroyed if you attempted to remove it. Based on the process used to alter them which would be similar to the one used on bad checks, this would solve your problem. And since you charge for C.O.A's allready the financial end will be much less than future attorney fees.

Also, and not to beat on you, but?. You have an obligation once you recognize the problem to circumvent these guys and the cost is a lot less probably a 1.00 per C.O.A if im not mistaken, and there is no way they can get that out of the seal without showing some kind of issue, its not happening.

[Bob Hritz]

Hello Detlev,

I think any good paper company will make paper, for you, that will not be easy to alter. Paper can contain an internal ink that reads VOID (or any word of your choice) should an erasure or chemical ink eradicator be used. These papers will usually change color in any area that is altered, leaving a visible and easily recognizeable spot. The companies that print checks and stock certificates are those of which to make inqueries.

Lamination is good, but not only expensive, it can be forged as well and dulled or marred to hide internal alterations.

The best bet is to use a paper that changes color and exibits a warning, like VOID, should the paper be tampered with. This is also very good for your business correspondance, where some person may alter a letter or receipt.

Good luck and congratulations for going after those who would use your well earned reputation to sell their spurious goods.

One last thought is that you could use a completely different format for articles you judge to be copies. This could range to a different color certificate, to a printed format that states, in bold lettering on the form, that the article is a post-war copy. This would be the most cost effective and surest way, with a completely different format.

Warmest regards,
Bob Hritz

[Detlev Niemann]

Thank you Bob.

I have special paper with a "water sign", use real fotos, special stamp fluid and sign it personally.
To laminate my expertise would make it more difficult to identify above details.

Your hint with a special paper is a good idea.
But all details are useless when someone fakes it and lists "blurred" pictures on ebay, or just shows halfe of the expertise.

I never complain about legal fees as specialists are worth every penny.

Thanks for your support and good ideas
regards
detlev

[Harry]

I think another, simpler way, is to have serial number on the COA, and for you (Detlev) to keep a copy on file. A prospecting purchaser may ask for the serial No and then check with you to verify against the copy you hold on file. A few more phonecalls in your direction, but then maybe some more business in your direction also.

[hagwalther]

Herr Niemann,

Could you emboss a 'stamp' mark similar to that used by Steven Previteria in his collectors edition on the first page of 'Prussian Blue'.

This mark is made by what appears to a two sided die and the paper is 'stamped out' like a hollow back badge. No ink is involved and it does give a nice, quality appearance to the paper.

Regards ...