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Opinions one EK2, Straight Leg?

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    #16
    I would have to agree with this style of cross being 'contentious' at best and most likely a recent style of reproduction. What follows is my opinion gleaned from my collecting experience. Take it for what you will.

    Having been a student and collector of Iron Crosses for 40 years I am particularly drawn to unusual EKs. This style is unusual to say the least. Having said that, I am very cautious of a 'new' style cross that hasn't been known before abruptly appearing on the market in quantity. In my experience these examples suddenly became known and fairly available within the last few years. Certainly makes one ask some pertinant questions.

    Thomas Huss had an example for sale in the last year or so. It was quietly removed from the sales catalog when it was deemed not period by some recognized authorities. If my memory is correct, Gordon Williamson and Frank Heukemes.

    I initially was very interested in acquirring this style of EK for my collection. But, there were some nagging questions that needed to be answered but couldn't be squared to my satisfaction. The example that I saw was not that well assembled. The frame did not fit the core very neatly. There were serious gaps between the beading and the core. Let's just say indifferent or uninspired manufacture.

    The frame looked to have been manufactured using the Gablonzer extrusion method versus the earlier stamped planchett and hand cut or die sheared method. This is a definately later manufacturing process that wouldn't have appeared on these supposedly earlier, non regulqtion style, EKs. The style purported to be early, yet the manufacture and finishing suggested a later piece. There are other details that are difficult to properly place as being of the era.

    The Iron Cross was the pre-eminent German decoration and national symbol. The officially prescribed style regarding shape and general construction, after the initial early time of manufacture, was fairly tightly regulated by the government. We know that there was a size , material and shape notice put out by the LDO(?) regarding the manufacture of Iron Crosses early on.

    An example of a known reproduction EKI was posted on one of the WAF forums with the same design and construction attributes as this EKII. Logic would demand that if the smae style of EKI is known to be not original then the EKII of the same style would follow suit.

    I know that these days the originality of a piece is often deemed correct by current 'consensus' or blessed by our personaly chosen expert. This certainly is not a slight at those who feel the need for this type of reassurance. I know that I seek out others opinions on many items I have doubts about. This is collecting with one's brain and using the resources available to us. This is used to either reaffirm or negate what research I have done on the subject for myself. As it should be to any serious collector.

    In this case it's ...Sorry, not for my collection.

    Just some thoughts.

    Tony
    Last edited by Tiger 1; 06-13-2006, 09:31 AM.
    An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it.

    "First ponder, then dare." von Moltke

    Comment


      #17
      Here is a cross from my private collection. Very similar to the EK2 that started this thread. My one is marked 4 on the needle. The only genuine piece in my photo are the two concrete rocks that i have picked from German fortifications here in Norway.

      Cheers.
      Peter
      Attached Files

      Comment


        #18
        Has anyone ever compared the die characteristics of the frame of this type EK2 with those of the "Round 3" Schinkel Type B?
        (And on a related note, has anyone ever seen a Schinkel Type B on a medal bar?)
        George

        Comment


          #19
          @Peter Wiking

          Hello,

          Could you please post a picture of the reverse from your EK 1.

          Regards
          Andreas

          Comment


            #20
            Hallo Andreas.
            Here you go. The reverse of my cross. This cross was bought by me more than 20 years ago.

            Cheers.
            Peter
            Attached Files

            Comment


              #21
              Hello Peter,

              thank you very much for this quick help.

              Kind Regards
              Andreas

              Comment


                #22
                Do you know that Andreas split core´s match the one you say is fake, and he have a point would a fake maker use split cores?
                Mikael

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by meriksson
                  Do you know that Andreas split core´s match the one you say is fake, and he have a point would a fake maker use split cores?
                  Mikael

                  Mikeal,

                  Stamping or pressing thin sheet steel is much easier than stamping a thicker planchet. The equiptment used for stamping sheet stell wouldn't have to be as heavy duty as that used for stamping a much thicker planchet.

                  The faker would be out to maximize his profit. Cheaper materials and cheaper equiptment make for a better profit margin.

                  The sad fact in any collecting field is that when the retail value of any item far exceeds the actual manufacturing cost someone will make fakes for profit. Simple capitalistic greed.

                  Tony
                  An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it.

                  "First ponder, then dare." von Moltke

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by Tiger 1
                    Mikeal,

                    Stamping or pressing thin sheet steel is much easier than stamping a thicker planchet. The equiptment used for stamping sheet stell wouldn't have to be as heavy duty as that used for stamping a much thicker planchet.

                    The faker would be out to maximize his profit. Cheaper materials and cheaper equiptment make for a better profit margin.

                    The sad fact in any collecting field is that when the retail value of any item far exceeds the actual manufacturing cost someone will make fakes for profit. Simple capitalistic greed.

                    Tony
                    Hi,

                    you're wrong. It's much more cheaper to stamp massive cores.

                    The exipment isn't cheaper. it is more expensive.
                    For each part of the core you need two dies. A positive and a negative side.
                    both must manufactured much more exactly than this for a one part core.
                    You need 4 dies.

                    Today the iron is not so important as in WW2 and the costs of manufacturing is the absolutely bigest part of the bill.

                    Those are bases of metalworking.

                    You're right that to maximice the profit margin,is a part of our system of the tratemend. Because of that a faker will never make two parts.

                    Regards
                    Andreas

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by George Stimson
                      ....has anyone ever seen a Schinkel Type B on a medal bar?)
                      A very good question! - yes... but only on one whose mounting style would have made it easy to place ANY Ek2 in that position. I would love to see a period photo of one in wear.

                      Originally posted by George Stimson
                      Has anyone ever compared the die characteristics of the frame of this type EK2 with those of the "Round 3" Schinkel Type B?
                      You know I have.. ... and it's 'no cigar' on all fronts..

                      Marshall.
                      Attached Files

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by Tiger 1
                        .....Thomas Huss had an example for sale in the last year or so. It was quietly removed from the sales catalog when it was deemed not period by some recognized authorities. If my memory is correct, Gordon Williamson and Frank Heukemes.....Tony
                        It was eventually re-listed and sold!

                        For the full discussion and pictures, see the link I posted in post #13.

                        And while we're on it - am I the only one on the planet who cannot see what the hell it is Paratrooper is posting pictures of??

                        M.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Paratrooper
                          Hi,

                          you're wrong. It's much more cheaper to stamp massive cores.

                          The exipment isn't cheaper. it is more expensive.
                          For each part of the core you need two dies. A positive and a negative side.
                          both must manufactured much more exactly than this for a one part core.
                          You need 4 dies.

                          Today the iron is not so important as in WW2 and the costs of manufacturing is the absolutely bigest part of the bill.

                          Those are bases of metalworking.

                          You're right that to maximice the profit margin,is a part of our system of the tratemend. Because of that a faker will never make two parts.

                          Regards
                          Andreas

                          But with the spilt cores they can make an EK1 as wel as a EK2.
                          Just a thougt

                          Regards,
                          Luud

                          Comment


                            #28
                            @Tiger an all
                            Hi,

                            I want to say that this is only a discussion with respect. I respect each opinion but i don't share each.
                            Please note that nothing what i say should be a personal attack. I'm very liberal mindet and don't want that this IMO constructive discussion ends in a controversy that isn't objective any longer.
                            That's what i want to say generally and i hope all of you have the same opinion about this.
                            I know how fast a discussion can become polemic style or in the badest case it can end in a little war. I think no one of us want this.


                            @Biro
                            can't you see the pictures? If it's so and you want to see them i can send them to you per E-Mail. Just send me a PM with your adresse.

                            @LuckyLuudje
                            good thoughts/questions you have there.

                            If you compare the hollow stamped cores for IC 1. Class you will see that there is a difference between both.
                            Those they where made for the 1. Class have a break around for making the hollow core thick. I found no other worts but you will see it on the pics.
                            So they cannot use it for bozh classes.

                            If you look at the core-parts from the 2. class you will see a groove as profile around. If you put the parts together this prfile fits very exactly together. That is made so thereby the individual parts rattles like a one part core in the framenot.
                            I tell that to make clear that this cores are very exactly made. I couldn't believe that anyone make such a quality work if he want's to sell copys.
                            I forgot: There is also a profile around the cores that hold the core in thge frame in a very exactly position with not so much tollerance.

                            Regards
                            Andreas



                            The cores for the hollow IC 1. Class


                            The two parts of the core for the diskussed piece


                            Last edited by Paratrooper; 06-14-2006, 06:12 AM.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by Paratrooper
                              ...edit.... I couldn't believe that anyone make such a quality work if he want's to sell copys....edit...

                              Regards
                              Andreas
                              I believe the fakers are going to make the best quality they can, within cost restraints, to part suckers from their money. The closer fakes are to originals, the better chance they have of making the big $$$$.

                              Hank
                              Unless it was nighttime, or the weather was bad, and you were running out of gas - then it was a sweaty nightmare, like a monkey f*ing a skunk.
                              ~ Dan Hampton, Viper Pilot

                              Comment


                                #30
                                I have two examples of this Iron Cross. The piece on the left has been in my collection for about 35 years. The cross on the right about 12 years.

                                The manufacturing is identical on both, but the left cross has a much finer baked on enamel type paint which is very durable. The right cross has a paint which tends not to adhere to the core.

                                Either way, I will hold these until a definate answer is found. There are other Iron Crosses of varying quality that are accepted as original. As for me, the jury is still deliberating.

                                Bob Hritz
                                Attached Files
                                In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

                                Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.

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