Knight's Cross Documents

[fknorr]

This may be an impossible question to answer but here goes:

I see all these Knight's Crosses pictured here in this forum, where are all of the formal Knight's Cross Documents?

I know these are high end items (more so than the KC's themselves), but I never see any photos of any and/or hear of anyone having any. How many people here have the formal documents and how many do you speculate are in collections out there today?

[Hank C.]

I saw there are actually a number of them in that auction that was discussed here in the last day or two. Also somebody came through the forum about 1 year or so ago, with one that had been found in their father's trunk in the attic.

The documents are also considerably more fragile than crosses, and susceptible to time, loss, and wear.

I think there's quite a few out there, but considerably fewer than crosses. You could buy extra crosses, but not documents.

Hank

[fknorr]

I saw there are actually a number of them in that auction that was discussed here in the last day or two.

Can you point me to that thread/auction...I just did a quick search and (since I do not know what to look for) came up empty handed...

[Ron Weinand]

My KC Document

Here is my KC Urkunde. Much rarer than the medal, these were probably issued until about late 1942 and then a few during the rest of the war, but not in any order. Mine has an original Hitler signature and was about the 104th one given (along with Sepp Det. on July 4th, 1940-7 on that day). Does anyone have pictures of that ceremony??? Ron Weinand, Weinand Militaria
<img src=http://www.welistforyou.com/ebaypix/kcdoc.jpg>

[fknorr]

Nice, great conditioned document Ron!

Maybe you'd be better able to answer the question above Ron since you may have seen more of these over your years (being a dealer and motel buys) than the majority of us.

How many have passed through your hands?
And (without naming owners names) how many do you speculate that you know of in collections?

[Kevin V.]

Very nice Rk mappe, I am also thinking of buying one, and hope to find one with a well known name in the future!!!

[Ron Weinand]

KC Documents

First of all, I am a collector. I deal to support my expensive habit (almost as bad a a drug addiction, but you can't buy the stuff on the corner from a dealer.
Next, this is the ONLY KC Document I have ever owned and was found in St. Louis in a trash can in an alley. I traded a considerable amount of medals (my long range night fighter with hanger and some other Luft bars that I wish I didn't have to let go to get it along with some cash).
The number issued is very limited. Only the first couple of hundred were hand signed by Hitler. After this and the war picked up, Hitler had another person on his staff who could copy his signature sign the rest, but there is no way to be sure as he signed some of the later ones if he decided to do it. Also, many were not given out but were in storage in Berlin.
If the German veteran was in Hitler's area, was home in Germany on leave, was requested by Hitler to be present, etc., then he received the document. If not, it was never given.
There are several originals that were never even signed, but this is mainly the higher documents: Oakleaves, Oakleaves and Swords, etc. Again, not in any order and only if they were presented or not.
Also, some of the documents never were given to the winner, but were made and sent on tour throughout Germany to raise money for the war effort. Again, no way to tell for sure who got the document and who didn't unless there is photographic evidence.
All in all, there is still much to learn. One good thing that has happened is many of the original German veterans who survived the war were sent a survey form concerning their award and if they received the documents and many have been interviewed and answered questions concerning the award of the cross and its documents that MAY be in an upcoming book.
I have sent pictures of mine for the work.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Miltiaria

[Hank C.]

Can you point me to that thread/auction...I just did a quick search and (since I do not know what to look for) came up empty handed...

Here ya go...
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=148793

Download pdf doc #6 on the auction link.

Hank

[fknorr]

Here ya go...
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=148793

Download pdf doc #6 on the auction link.

Hank

Danke Homie!

[rkdek]

I've been looking at these Ritterkreuzmappes these last 2 years and have been able to locate quite a few.

It is estimated among collectors that about 800 documents were made, not all of these given to the awardees like Ron pointed out. Where the number 800 comes from, God knows.

In just 2 years, I was able to inventorise about 75 of these Mappes, so there are some in circulation.

Also, at a certain time on this forum mention was made of a European collection of about 30-40 Mappes to be dispersed in the future and there is/was a collection in the US of 50+ Mappes.

Please don't ask for my inventory because it is stricktly confidential. Thanks to this thread I can add Ron's Kriebel Mappe to my list.

[RobertE]

I have a formal red award document to Obsertsleutenant Hermann Hennicke from summer of 1942. I got it with a large vet haul years ago.

A story which you may find of interest. I missed getting two formal red documents years ago, though I'm still trying. The vet captured them in Northern Germany and almost sold them to me as death certificates. He believed that's what they were because he removed them himself from a a box car he claimed was filled with them. Each man in his platoon took as many as they wanted; he was a tanker so two weren't too many. I was offered them in 1972 for 100.00 each, but as a kid couldn't afford them. I did buy so cheaper things from him.

They were nice, and in boxes. I don't know why, but if his story is accurate, someone made the decision to move these unclaimed documents to another location. This train was dead on the tracks from a probable air attack.

s/f Robert

[Erich B.]

I like that--the vet captured them. I wonder if they put up much of a fight!
Erich




The vet captured them in Northern Germany and almost sold them to me as death certificates.

[DaveNZ]

Here is my KC Urkunde. Much rarer than the medal, these were probably issued until about late 1942 and then a few during the rest of the war, but not in any order. Mine has an original Hitler signature and was about the 104th one given (along with Sepp Det. on July 4th, 1940-7 on that day). Does anyone have pictures of that ceremony??? Ron Weinand, Weinand Militaria
<img src=http://www.welistforyou.com/ebaypix/kcdoc.jpg>

Wow what can I say: great stuff.

Are both the signs on this document written by Hitler or has it been signed by two different people?

Isnt there Hitlers signitnure on the back of the Deutches Mutter Kreuz?

[RobertE]

I like that--the vet captured them. I wonder if they put up much of a fight!
Erich




The vet captured them in Northern Germany and almost sold them to me as death certificates.

I'm not sure, but the troops between the Normandy beaches and the train sure did. I believe he said his tank was hit by AT fire more than any other tank in Pattons' 3d Army; he said his tank was on display for years on a main road into Paris after the war.

[AZartman]

I had the good fortune of seeing one of these first hand a few weeks back. I will not say who owns it. A magnificent piece of work and in fantastic shape. The hand finished details are amazing.