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**johannes post** · 02-04-2006, 01:10 PM

absolutly right harry !

i think the problem with the third reich medals is there history.
a black site in the world history.
but as we all know time clear the pain.
and i believe that this part of history becomes more and more in the interrest of the world history.

regards johan

Originally posted by Harry

Indeed, and the VC is still being made and awarded today!

What about the Oaks and Swords? far fewer of those awarded than VCs and yet only about 25K euro? Rarity alone does not dictate price, more desirability and willingness of people to pay...

**Harry** · 02-04-2006, 01:45 PM

Often the bravery behind the awarding of a VC is well publicised and documented in history. Many stories of bravery and heroics asscociated with high-end third reich awards will be lost to history, as modern humanity strives to forget its darkest moments of the past.........

**Wizard** · 02-04-2006, 02:08 PM

No disrespect to the people still saving up to buy a knights cross (it took me awhile to purchase mine), but I am glad that the prices are going up. When you think about it, it is some serious money that is being utilized to do absolutely nothing. It's great to own a bit of history, but how many of us would shell out $10,000, of our hard earned money, if they knew that they couldn't recover any of it in the end?

World war II, obviously, was a global affair. I think, in the past, it's only the citizens of the wealthy nations that can afford to collect such things. Now that capitalism and wealth has spread to Russia and Asia, their interest of things like the knights cross will only increase.

**Santi** · 02-04-2006, 02:24 PM

What is a KR ?

**DavidM** · 02-04-2006, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by Wizard

No disrespect to the people still saving up to buy a knights cross (it took me awhile to purchase mine), but I am glad that the prices are going up. When you think about it, it is some serious money that is being utilized to do absolutely nothing. It's great to own a bit of history, but how many of us would shell out $10,000, of our hard earned money, if they knew that they couldn't recover any of it in the end?

World war II, obviously, was a global affair. I think, in the past, it's only the citizens of the wealthy nations that can afford to collect such things. Now that capitalism and wealth has spread to Russia and Asia, their interest of things like the knights cross will only increase.

Hello

This, in my opinion, depends on whether you are buying as an investment or as a piece of history. I agree that £4500 to £6000 (GBP) is a lot to pay for an award, but look at the history behind the award. That is what makes people want them, the history. If you can find one where it is known who received that actual piece, (as the one on Detlevs site this week for £4485 GBP, $7930 USD), than you really do have a piece of military and, research dependant, social history. That's really what this hobby is about. Certainly, it's nice to see the value of things rising when you have spent a considerable sum on it, but it is the investors, the speculators who to some considerable degree are responsible for the sharp rise in the value of the Kinghts Cross.

Be in this hobby for the history of it. If at the end of it you sell and make some money on an item then view that as a bonus. Remember you will have been a custodian of something which is unique in terms of history and the Iron Cross. In my opinion that is what we, as collectors, should be concentrating on, not how much can be realised for a particular item.

Anyway, as the expression goes, that's my pennies worth.

Regards
David

**johannes post** · 02-04-2006, 02:42 PM

you are right david

do not see this as a investment !
but are we now not on the point that it is a investment ?
when you pay 8000 euro on a piece of metal

regards johan

Originally posted by DavidM

Hello

This, in my opinion, depends on whether you are buying as an investment or as a piece of history. I agree that £4500 to £6000 (GBP) is a lot to pay for an award, but look at the history behind the award. That is what makes people want them, the history. If you can find one where it is known who received that actual piece, (as the one on Detlevs site this week for £4485 GBP, $7930 USD), than you really do have a piece of military and, research dependant, social history. That's really what this hobby is about. Certainly, it's nice to see the value of things rising when you have spent a considerable sum on it, but it is the investors, the speculators who to some considerable degree are responsible for the sharp rise in the value of the Kinghts Cross.

Be in this hobby for the history of it. If at the end of it you sell and make some money on an item then view that as a bonus. Remember you will have been a custodian of something which is unique in terms of history and the Iron Cross. In my opinion that is what we, as collectors, should be concentrating on, not how much can be realised for a particular item.

Anyway, as the expression goes, that's my pennies worth.

Regards
David

**Jeff Nichols** · 02-04-2006, 03:11 PM

Well said David! I have been saying that all along- buy it because you "like it" and the historical significance about it, not what it is worth or for investment reasons. If all of a sudden this stuff was worth nothing tomarrow it wouldn't phase me one bit, the money was long spent already and the historical significance is worth more to me than the green. I also believe in keeping prices fair, not overkill. Also just my pennies worth...Cheers...Jeff

**Jeff Nichols** · 02-04-2006, 03:11 PM

oops! double post!

**Wizard** · 02-04-2006, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by johannes post

you are right david

do not see this as a investment !
but are we now not on the point that it is a investment ?
when you pay 8000 euro on a piece of metal

regards johan

Hello DaveM and johannes, that is my point. For most people who work hard to save their money to buy a knights cross, it is an investment of their time and sacrifice (unless you are wealthy where money is not an issue). In my opinion, collecting a KC is not the same as collecting EKs. There is a difference when you throw away 300USD or 8,000USD.

Hello Jeff Nichols, I understand that one may not want to look at it as an investment, but the money you spend on one is nothing to sneeze at.

As for the amount of KCs owned by forum members, I agree that there must be more. Most people just prefer to remain silent.

Now the interesting question is, how much of a premium would you pay for an attributed KC? The one that was just sold by Detlev attributed to Major Ernst-Georg Kendzia, was there any premium added at all?

And are oaks really worth twice the amount of a KC?

**J G** · 02-04-2006, 03:29 PM

The price of RK's is just like everything else. They are worth exactly what someone is willing to pay. To some their RK's are not for sale at any price as they are a piece of history. To others they're an investment.

As an example here in England, house prices have almost doubled and more in five years. Supply and demand is the overiding princiapal in the value of anything.

**Ralph A** · 02-05-2006, 10:55 AM

I think the existence of Lord Ashcroft gives a somewhat distorted idea of what a VC is worth.

**Bob Hritz** · 02-05-2006, 11:15 AM

Ralph is correct, but one must outbid Lord Ashcroft to obtain a VC from any commercial seller.

Anyone waiting for either VC's or RK's prices to fall will have a long, long wait. I have heard the same thing since the 1960's.

Bob Hritz

**Ron Weinand** · 02-05-2006, 01:01 PM

Investments

Bob is correct. I remember in the early 1980s when the gas crunch was on and all the collectors said that the value of TR items was doomed as there would be no shows to sell items.
Next was the internet boom when everyone said that eBay would kill the prices and you wouldn't be able to buy any more at a reasonable rate.
Next, the Russians were going to flood the market with TR items when the wall came down and the prices would go in the cellar.
Well, I am still waiting so I can buy my $1000.00 RK!!
Is this an investment?? If you think I am spending my hard earned (not inherited or lotto money) on TR items for a lark and not to give my family a return upon my leaving this world, get a life. I intend to make money on the relics or I would have chosen some other commodity like land. Right now I am making more on this collectible than any other investment, and the rest aren't doing too bad either!!
Don't let anyone tell you he bought them to loose or just for the history. If he did he is lying to himself. These items are a great way to appreciate an investment and get a return while having fun. Those who don't are not buying correctly nor investing the time to learn how to choose their items.
JUST MY OPINIONS.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

**DavidM** · 02-06-2006, 05:07 AM

Originally posted by Ron Weinand

Is this an investment?? If you think I am spending my hard earned (not inherited or lotto money) on TR items for a lark and not to give my family a return upon my leaving this world, get a life. I intend to make money on the relics or I would have chosen some other commodity like land. Right now I am making more on this collectible than any other investment, and the rest aren't doing too bad either!!
Don't let anyone tell you he bought them to loose or just for the history. If he did he is lying to himself. These items are a great way to appreciate an investment and get a return while having fun. Those who don't are not buying correctly nor investing the time to learn how to choose their items.
JUST MY OPINIONS.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Hello Ron

Like you all my items are bought out of what I earn. I don't disagree that anyone who spends both the time and money needed to amass a decent collection isn't, at some point in time, looking for a return on that investment. The point I was trying to make in my earlier post is that those who, for a lack of a better expression, might be termed serious collectors will buy an item first and foremost for the historical value and enjoyment of the item, and only secondly as an investment. It is the speculators who now buy purely for a quick financial return who are to some extent responsible for the large rises in the prices.

In this hobby we have been extremely fortunate in that the value of these items keeps on rising. Of course the downside to this is that each year we have pay more and more for any particular item, but none the less, Third Reich militaria is a sound investment. Others who collect different forms of antiques have seen the value of their purchases rise and fall over the years - often dependant on whether the item is 'in fashion' or not.

Like me you appear to be in this in hobby long term. I have seen items that you have put on the E-stand with comments such as 'this has been in my collection for 30 years'. If you were buying purely as an investment, as a speculator, you would have dispossed of items much, much earlier. So yes, I too like to note that my investment, in terms of both knowledge of the subject and money spent is an appreciating asset, but holding on to items for 10, 20 or 30 years - or not even selling them at all and passing them down through the family - demonstrates that getting your money back isn't the primary motivation behind collecting Third Reich items, and that's the point I was trying make earlier.

I hope this makes sense and that my thoughts are now clearer.

Regards
David

**Dave Kane** · 02-09-2006, 10:15 PM

Bob, congratulations you have set a new standard!!! Yes, the Souval Knight's Crosses are 'close' to the period methods etc etc and I agree that, but for the post war S&L they are the closest (one) will get to the period manufacture....

We have seen the Latvian (?) repos go for thousands and the 'Rounder' allegedly go for approx. $9,200.00 (poor bstrd!) so I wonder where will the REAL stuff end up!

In anything worth collecting the original, real and period items will always prevail and demand the greatest $$

I'm sure now that I sold my Souval a bit below market.......

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