Görings Medals question

[johnnyrocket]

"Even if one had Goering's surrender medals there would be no way to prove for sure that they were the original medals."

The were abouts of the medals is known. The provance rock hard. They are pictured in there current resting place.<!-- / message -->

Do you have the link, and information on these medals in question...thanks, for this information.

Johnny R.

[WARLORD]

I will post them on this forum. You would just have to register.

http://stirnpanzer.com/forum/

[luftkrieg]

Goring's medal bar in the RAF Museum in England, sent to me by the Curator himself!

[Biber]

I will post them on this forum. You would just have to register.

http://stirnpanzer.com/forum/

Registered and waiting. Let us know when they're there.

B

[WARLORD]

They have been posted on this forum. Here is a link to other photos.

http://stirnpanzer.com/forum/viewtop...4&p=6119#p6119

[johnnyrocket]

Goering's Gold seal of office ring

Still looking for any information on Goering's gold seal of office ring. It's status now, or when it was presented to him. WHO AND HOW was this ring brought to America?

Thank you

[dengwill]

I just found a funny little article in the Telegraph:



The dictator (Hitler) would often break from the serious nature of waging his campaign to "pull the legs" of his entourage of generals and hangers on.

His favourite victim was the Luftwaffe chief Herman Goering, who was notoriously fond of awarding himself medals and decorations.

According to the book by the last surviving member of his bunker, Hitler recounted how Mrs Goering found her husband waving a baton over his underwear in the bedroom and asked him what he was doing.

"He replied: "I am promoting my underpants to OVERpants"", Hitler then joked.

Hitler was said to be so proud of his joke that he had medals made from gold and silver paper for Goering to wear on his pyjamas.

Not too related but funny all the same!

[Gran Sasso]

Forum rules, VI "Posting conduct", 3: ...Do not type your messages in ALL CAPS, becuase ALL CAPS is considered SHOUTING.

[QUOTE=Bob Coleman;849480]

No disrespect intended, Bob, however, this is an open forum and as such you might expect some honest responses. Oh, and posting in all caps is hard to read FYI.[/Q
IF THIS IS AN OPEN FORUM, I GUESS I HAVE THE RIGHT TO RESPOND IN CAPS IF I WANT TO. HONEST RESPONSE IS QUITE DIFFERENT FROM SARCASTIC AND BOORISH BEHAVIOR. ANYONE WHO CAREFULLY READ THE DETAILED HISTORY OF THE CAREER OF COLONEL KUBALA CONTAINED IN HIS DAUGHTER'S RESPONSE WOULD KNOW THIS IS A LEGITIMATE RESPONSE.
BOB

[johnnyrocket]

Ron,

Here is a complete list of all "Gorings Decorations and Awards" from his entire military history:

Johnny R.

[ray319]

The following is the second part of the story about the famous Goring Surrender medals. part one may be here on the forum, but I can't find it. It jnust covers the period when Goring's medals wee tanken by the American officer and how they becane hidden u ntil the 1960. This part picks up with my continued quest to acquire the medals.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THE GORING SURRENDER MEDALS – KUBALA’S STUPILATION

Three weeks had passed since the Ohio Gun show and still I had not received any word from peter Kubala. In the mean time, my friend Ted Rich and send me all the information he had concerning Kubala’s involvement with Goring and the other high ranking prisoners captured and sent to the Interrogation Center set up at Augsburg. I had given up hope of hearing from Peter Kubala when the phone rang late one evening, as I was relaxing after dinner. It was Peter Kubala and he informed me that he was sorry to have not made contact before now, but collectors had “pestered” him daily trying to purchase the Goring medals. He dropped a few names and I knew he was telling the truth. I could sense a sales pitch coming, but what he said next was a complete surprise. He said that he knew that everyone he had met were just crooks looking to cheat him, including me. I almost told him what I thought of him and his attitude, but the mere possibility that I might be able to acquire the Goring medals overcome my hot temper and the hillbilly retaliation I was normally known for displaying on occasions. He proceeded to say that he had been offered a large sum of money for the medals, but what he wanted was more valuable to him than money. It seems that year ago when his father returned from the war, he not only had Goring’s medals, but his solid gold watch as well. The watch had been given to the son with the medals and other war booty his father had brought back. However, according to Peter, when his father divorced his mother and left to make a new life with the French woman he had met during the war, he left with the gold watch as well. The incident, along with the natural traumatic loss of his father, seemed to have burned into the memory of the son for all these years. The medals he said meant nothing to him and if I could get his gold watch back the medals would be mine. He gave me the address of his father, now deceased, in Cocoa Beach Florida. He informed me to contact him if I could accomplish this task.

I immediately contacted my friend Ted Rich and informed him of my conversation with Kubala. We both realized that the search had now taken a near impossible turn. However, my sister was living near Cocoa Beach in Orlando and I made plans to visit her and try to contact Mrs. Kubala. I informed Ted that I would try to make contact with Mrs. Kubala as soon as I could arrange to travel to Florida.

As I looked through the material received from Ted earlier, I called Ten and said I would make one last attempt to acquiring the Goring medals from Peter Kubala. I would tell him if he didn’t agree to part with the medals that the truth that his father had lied would be made known. I would tell him that it wouldn’t look good on his father’s memory if the twisted tale and lies his father had told proved him to be a liar and a thief. Ted said that it just didn’t look good for either West Point or myself ever getting the medals away from Kubala.

I immediately called and informed Peter and informed him of my plan stating that West point would make it know that his father had lied to them about him not having the medals and was a liar. To my surprise, Peter said he didn’t care because everyone already knew his father was a liar and he could care less what West Point or I wrote about him. He flatly said that if he didn’t get his watch that I would not get the medals. That was the last time I ever spoke to Peter Paul Kubala.

PETER SECRETLY SOLD THE GORING MEDALS TO AN OLD FRIEND IN THE EARLY 1970’S – SECRET KEPT FOR OVER 30 YEARS

Peter Paul Kubala retained the Goring Surrender Medals for all practical purposes. I was resolved to the fact that I had failed. Periodically over the following years I would be asked about them. Peter Kubala finally started telling people that he had sold them to me and not to contact him about them again. For me I looked upon my hard fought attempt as just another one that got away. Little did I know that I would be holding the Goring Grand Cross again in less than a year and wouldn’t recognize that it was Kubala’s Goring Grand Cross.

About the same time all the furor about the Kaubla items was foremost on my mind, I had been visiting a pioneer collector in the military field who was my dear friend and “American Mentor”, Dr. Klietmann being his German counter part, whose name was Basil Harr. My old friend lived almost a hermit near Bristol, Virginia, in a most unusual home that housed one of the world’s most extensive private collections from both WWI and WWII. Most people live in a home and have an area devoted to their collection. With Basil, now in his early 80’s, he hand built his home around his collection. He had secret panels, doors, and hiding places that only he knew how to open. The house was a museum that could be converted into a conformable dwelling at the touch of Basil’s finger. He lived alone in the large two-story house and his only companions were his two goats. He called them his “Watch Goats”. I learned never to get out of my car without announcing my presence with my car horn. He didn’t have a telephone or T. V. set even and when I wanted to visit I simply drove the two-hour drive from my home to his and he always welcomed me. So one of my earliest trips I forgot to blow my horn and was walking towards the steps leading to his front door when I found myself flying through the air and landing on the ground with a painful thud. Standing over me was one of the “Watch Goats” who had “Pearl Harbored” me. Fortunately, Basil came quickly to my rescue and I learned immediately what he meant by calling the goats his “Watch Goats”. When he was present, they were the most docile creatures one could hope to see, always “mooching” a cracker or bit of candy. You could have had the Hershey factory and be alone and all you would receive would be a resounding butt and begin flying without a license right their on the spot.

Basil was a most secretive collector and dealt primarily with European dealers. Only a very few major dealers had ever heard of Basil Harr and fewer knew where he lived. That was the way he liked it and it was basil that wrote me when a friend of his said that I was a major collector and taught high school in Harlan. On my first visit he asked me never to invite anyone without is permission. I only took a couple of my close friends to meet him in all the time I knew him. Pioneer collector Paul Peters, of Cincinnati, Ohio, was one and thought that he had walked into a museum upon seeing just the surface of Basil’s interior. When Basil begin to open the doors of his main display, Paul knew he had.

On one of my bi-weekly visits, I entered his main living room and on the middle of the table was an item that immediately caught my eye. It was an astonishing example of a Grand Cross. Basil had a bad habit of polishing every medal he had and used a soft cloth and silver polish. He has just finished polishing the silver border of the cross as I drove up. It was resting on a small paper box and the wrapping paper was also on the table. He had just received it in the mail. I was so awe struck with the cross as bells began to ring in my head. I had seen a cross just like this one in Louisville in the hand of Peter Kubala. I immediately asked Basil where had he come by this great Grand Cross. He picked the box up and set it aside, grinned and said, “Bill this was Hermann Goring’s wearing cross”. I again asked where it came from and again, he grinned and I can almost see the delight in his eyes today after 30 years as he replied: ”Now Bill, I can’t tell you all my secrets now can I?” That was Basil and I knew the Cross had found a home because Basil never traded or sold, just bought and bought everything he could get his hands on. I pointed out the most unusually large and solid cravat the cross was hung from. In 1969, I didn’t have the knowledge I have now and really didn’t think it was all that important then as I do now 30 odd years later. I also knew that I could look at it, or even take it home to study and photograph if I simply asked Basil’s permission.

Upon arriving back home that evening, I called Ted Rich and informed him of my latest visit with Basil. Ted had been interested in some of the items that Basil had that I had photographed and sent to him to inspect. Basil had been dealing with a character by the name of Charles Kingston and Ted Rich was working on exposing this charlatan for what he was: a prime crook, forger. E was also one of the best fakers of Third Reich daggers to ply his evil art in those early days of the 60’s and 70’s. As son as I mentioned seeing a “Himmler Honor Sword” in Basil’s collection, Ted immediately told me what it looked like and read the inscription that was engraved on the blade to me. I was astounded and told Ted that a sword as he described was in Basil’s collection. Ted informed me that he thought the sword and some of the other daggers Basil had were in fact forgeries. He asked if I could bring the items up for him and the museum staff to inspect when I next visited West Point. I agreed and made arrangement to take the requested items with me to West Point. Ted wrote Mr. Harr requesting permission to inspect and view the items and I left Knoxville, Tennessee by plane to stay for a few days at West Point. I took the items and arrived in New York City in the midst of the greatest snowstorm to hit the state in over 50 years. By the time I arrived at West point from New York City by bus, I was about to warm up the collecting world and help expose a major faker to the world. Unknown to me, I was carrying the original Goring Surrender Grand Cross and never found it out until last week, thirty-one year later.

The West Point Library had receive an unpublished manuscript from a
U. S. Army Colonel as a donation to their rare books and document files. The manuscript was compiled in 1964 and was work of fiction. Not to embarrass the Colonel who was duped, I will not release his name because at the time I gave my word to Ted and the Library staff that I would keep all names confidential except the name of “Charles Kingston.” To the best of my knowledge it now resides in the Rare Books and Document files never to be made public.

The Daggers all turned out to be Kingston fakes the Himmler sword and H. Wick’s Luftwaffe presentation sword included. However all the rest of the items (I have the original photographs that I took of all these items in my files to this day.) Unfortunately no photographs of the Goring Grand Cross are available and are lost to history due to a devastating flood that destroyed 75 % of my written files in 1976. However, Ted was so taken with the Grand Cross that he wrote Basis after I had returned it to him. Basil told him that it was indeed the original cross Goring was wearing when he surrendered and he had the other medals that Goring had once owned at the time of his surrender. Ted took 31 years to tell me about this correspondence. He realized at that time Basil Harr had come to own what I had worked so many months to acquire. He was the new owner of the medals Peter Paul Kubala owned. Maybe both Ted and Basil just didn’t want to hurt my feelings after all the time and money I invested in my quest had ended in failure. This will for now remains part of the mystery, but maybe Ted can answer this question at a later date.

Determination always keeps the inquisitive detective on the job. I am like the preverbal elephant; I never forget. I had resolved to myself many years ago that I would never acquire the Goring Medals. Had Peter Paul Kubala sold then to any collector the world would have soon find out. When no such word was forth coming I knew that either Kubala still had them or had sold them without his fathers connection. Both were not logical thoughts, but I could think of no other reasonable deductive conclusion to make. Not until this past November when I read Christopher Ailsby’s story about his Campion/Goring Diamond Pilot Observer’s badge did I immediately know that Campion’s badge was not Goring’s badge. That is why I investigated the Campion story and went to the trouble to acquire the information from the RAF Museum to prove the point to myself, Ailsby and the collecting world. If Steve Previtera had not been reading the forum posts and called me and informed me that my long lost friend Edward P. Rich had written him, the story would have not been told. Ted mentioned to Steve the Goring medals, and our West Point days together trying to track them down as well as the elusive gold watch. Upon contacting Ted after all these years I have been able to tie all the loose ends together to put finality to the Goring Surrender medals story.

The end came long ago when shortly after I returned the Grand Cross to Basil Harr. I received a telephone call from a friend who lived in Bristol and he informed me that Basil’s home and his entire collection had been destroyed by fire. Only a few item that he had let a friend borrow were spared the flames of destruction that destroyed in a short few minutes what took Basil a lifetime to accumulate. Basil lived only a short time after the fire. I sadly never met with him again and I hold only fondest memories of a true gentleman and the epitome of a true collector.

Ted informed me that he was sure that Basil had come across the Goring Surrender Medals and acquired them directly or indirectly from Peter Kubala. Whether he bought them directly from Peter Kubala is not verifiable, but the time period corresponds with Kubala revealing the medals. Basil Harr didn’t appear to be rich man, but he lived comfortably. He always had funds to purchase anything he wanted, so I have no doubt that he paid who ever had the medals a hefty sum. He had many close friends in the collecting community who supplied him tips and information concerning high quality items that were on the market. I have no doubt that Basil heard about the Kubala items when the news broke that he had them. Finally, no sooner did the embers cool enough to allow the scavengers to pilfer the ruins of Basil’s home did the vultures converge on the hot ruins. With garden rakes and shovels they carried off fire damaged items. Basil had two 1939 Grand Crosses and one survived in very damaged condition. I ever knew if it was the one I took to West Point. It was sold to a major collector on the East Coast and has never surfaced to this day. Some of his daggers and swords were salvaged and sold also. Sadly they were fakes and no real value was lost except to Basil. I never told him his Kingston Daggers were fakes. I thought it best to let the old fellow enjoy then in the twilight of his life. Sadly, when the embers dies so did the spirit of Basil Harr. I am satisfied that the Goring Medals taken from him in 1945 were lost to the flames that destroyed the famous Basil Harr Collection. I am finally satisfied that my investigation can finally be closed. I think that he case will remain closed unless new evidence to the contrary comes to light.

If anyone is interested I new Basil Harr,I lived less than 1/2 mile from him and around 13 mabe 14 years old.I used to go see him he would tell me about his colledction he enjoyed talking about them and he did get real depressed after the fire.He told me to go and dig and what ever I could find to take and keep I did This is what I found and have had them for over 45 years.I also have a ring not shown in the photo. https://storage.jumpshare.com/previe...UjedqC16uBUu85

[ray319]

https://storage.jumpshare.com/previe...UjedqC16uBUu85

[Brian George]

[QUOTE=W. C. Stump;124100]As I looked through the material received from Ted earlier, I called Ten and said I would make one last attempt to acquiring the Goring medals from Peter Kubala. I would tell him if he didn’t agree to part with the medals that the truth that his father had lied would be made known. I would tell him that it wouldn’t look good on his father’s memory if the twisted tale and lies his father had told proved him to be a liar and a thief. Ted said that it just didn’t look good for either West Point or myself ever getting the medals away from Kubala.

I immediately called and informed Peter and informed him of my plan stating that West point would make it know that his father had lied to them about him not having the medals and was a liar. To my surprise, Peter said he didn’t care because everyone already knew his father was a liar and he could care less what West Point or I wrote about him. He flatly said that if he didn’t get his watch that I would not get the medals. That was the last time I ever spoke to Peter Paul Kubala.[QUOTE]

One hates to speak ill of the dead, but if I'm reading this correctly WC Stump was prepared to rubbish a man's reputation in order to get what he wanted. Sounds rather sleazy to me.

[Operation Cobra]

[QUOTE=Brian George;7701062][QUOTE=W. C. Stump;124100]As I looked through the material received from Ted earlier, I called Ten and said I would make one last attempt to acquiring the Goring medals from Peter Kubala. I would tell him if he didn’t agree to part with the medals that the truth that his father had lied would be made known. I would tell him that it wouldn’t look good on his father’s memory if the twisted tale and lies his father had told proved him to be a liar and a thief. Ted said that it just didn’t look good for either West Point or myself ever getting the medals away from Kubala.

I immediately called and informed Peter and informed him of my plan stating that West point would make it know that his father had lied to them about him not having the medals and was a liar. To my surprise, Peter said he didn’t care because everyone already knew his father was a liar and he could care less what West Point or I wrote about him. He flatly said that if he didn’t get his watch that I would not get the medals. That was the last time I ever spoke to Peter Paul Kubala.[QUOTE]

One hates to speak ill of the dead, but if I'm reading this correctly WC Stump was prepared to rubbish a man's reputation in order to get what he wanted. Sounds rather sleazy to me.[/QUOTE

I was thinking the same but decided to let it slip. I was surprised that he let that out to the public but as you say its not important now