Patina ends & dirt begins

[Ron Westerduin]

I polished a EK2 once ......and will never do it again.......i polished off a bit of the black paint on the inner frame...i still have nightmares about it......

[Buddy]

Hi Seba
I agree with you (My helmet is on)
If you look at the pixs you can see some places where the dirt is wiped away, not totaly , but enough of a hint that i beleived it was dirt & crud. But i didnt want to be hasty & get some input from the "Pros from Dover "
you'all understand im NOT gonna polish the entire DK to a shine , I just want the crap off it,, not the fine patina
Respectfully yours
Buddy

[Ed_Haynes]

Glad you have the skill to achieve one goal and not another. You need to teach that skill to the major military museums, who do not have the same faith in their restrained cleaning abilities and their skill in undoing a screw-up.

Ed Haynes

[Sebastian Bianchi]

Originally posted by Ed_Haynes
Glad you have the skill to achieve one goal and not another. You need to teach that skill to the major military museums, who do not have the same faith in their restrained cleaning abilities and their skill in undoing a screw-up.

Ed Haynes

There is hardly a need for the condescending attitude, professor.

[dm5000]

You anti-clean guys.....

Sorry guys,

But I fail to see the logic of some of you anti-clean guys. The four vets (only one left now) in my family would clean their medals pretty much before every wearing.

If permitted to wear their issued EKs, do you think German vets would wear their badges with dull gray frames and black splotches that collectors love to see? If these guys clean and maintain their medals, why wouldnt you? Dirt and grime = history?

As Gordon pointed out, if you are using "patina" or "tarnish" as an indicator of authenticity, you are barking up the wrong tree. Besides being able to duplicate this look by everything from burying them in the back yard to putting them in a jar of urine, just leave the badge alone without a protective finish for 5 years and see what happens.

Why is the look of neglect so good for militaria resale value? Beats me. Would your grandmother's wedding ring made in 1940 by the same jeweler be worth a lot more with 60 years of crud caked on?

Im not talking about buffing EKs on a polishing wheel till you can see your own reflection, but I use a very mild silver polish purchased from an antiques dealer to clean up dark frames. And guess what....despite my best efforts, after a handful of years sitting in a display case, they are back to looking "aged" again. Perhaps thats why my uncles cleaned their awards before the reunions.

Ok, you can send your hate mail now....

Dave

Oh yeah... thanks to Frank, I now remove "zinkpest" from badges with vaseline. Probably another NO-NO....So shoot me...

[Buddy]

>>>As Gordon pointed out, if you are using "patina" or "tarnish" as an indicator of authenticity, you are barking up the wrong tree. Besides being able to duplicate this look by everything from burying them in the back yard to putting them in a jar of urine, just leave the badge alone without a protective finish for 5 years and see what happens. <<

I agree
dirt & grunge do notadd to the value of a badge or medal
patina on the other hand does.
Like I stated befor

dirt & crud, might have accumlatd in some ones attic
but natural aged patina is a testement of age & history , if you get my drift.

some honored vet might let a badge lie in an attic for a couple of decades,, does this add to the value? spiritualy & historicaly I think not,, but natural patina is nature itself,, which does ad to the value,, IMHO

[Gordon Williamson]

Dave,

I agree with you 100%.

Buddy,

I also agree that natural tarnish is something to leave alone and is generally a very welcome feature on old silver. Unfortunately, the darkening of silver finish is NOT patina, it is Tarnish. The only place that tarnish will aid in the appearance of silver is when it forms in recesses and thus gives contrast to brighter highlights.
I reckon a lot of soldiers wouldn't be seen dead wearing the heavily tarnished awards that some collectors seem to cherish so much. These medals and awards were worn in combat, through mud, fire, blood and sh1t not some sort of precious antiquity to be handled with white gloves. Sorry, no offence, but I find that concept a bit ridiculous. Nothing wrong with treating stuff with respect, and each to his own and all that, but I have to say I think thats going way too far.

[Frank Heukemes]

I also agree and reserve varying judgements for each new award that goes into my collection. Some stay as they are beceuse they are beautiful that way or it would be dangerous to clean, some get cautiously cleaned.

I also feel the white glove Micky Mouse treatment goes too far. In theory it might be true that natural skin acid on your fingers harms your award. But I would ask any supporter of that theory to look at e.g. zinc badges that still hold the e.g. silver wash well and in PERFECT condition. Wouldn´t you assume that the finish should at least be gone on the outer edges because everybody handled and touched it there for 60 years with acid fingers? But it is NOT gone, the ones where it is gone on the edges are overall in a bad state or it happened through wear and rubbing.

Don´t get me wrong: cleaning IS a dangerous thing and unless you know exactly what you are doing, better leave the award alone.

Cheers, Frank

[Ed_Haynes]

Agreed, Frank.

Cleaning is probably (note I say "probably") OK, but more than that runs a real risk.

Let me offer two simple points:

1- One is that we seem to think, somehow, that we own these medals or badges, and that thereby we have the right to do whatever we want to them. This, I think, misses the point of why at least some of us are interested in this field. We are not the owners, we are merely custodians, for a few decades, of a real piece of history. The original recipient, whoever he or she may have been, is the "owner" if anyone is. (And this leads into our duty, when possible, to learn as much about the recipient as possible -- OK, this is easier with British than with German awards.) We do not, simply put, have the RIGHT to do with these things as we wish. They are not merely investment items or something we can tick off on a checklist. It is -- and excuse me for introducing this word here -- a simple matter of ethics.

2- Even if you merely view the award as only an investment, you should do nothing irreversible. It will (may) destroy the value. And, seriously, unless you have more skill that the preservation labs at major international military museums, you need to tread very, very lightly here. Light cleaning, removing grunge and grime, is fine. More than that runs a real risk. I suspect many of us have horror stories of what we did as stupid beginning collectors to turn valuable items into trash; I know I have such painful memories. Bad experience and a summer as an intern at the Smithsonian Institution changed my ways. (And I offer no particular apologies for sometimes adopting the tone of a "convert" or one who bears "battle scars".) I am not at all sure we should take "what the original owners did" as a guide. In my field of specialization, it was common for Indian enlisted personnel of the 19th century to clean their silver campaign medals daily with a mixture of wood ash, sand, and lemon juice. Even my minimal knowledge of chemistry makes this formula send chills down my spine! No wonder so many 19th century Indian medals are essentially plain disks of silver with no detail left and the original ribbons, when they are lucky enough to be around, are in tatters. Should we ape their polishing methods during the time we are the custodians of their medals? I hope not.

Short version: be careful not to do anything irreversible.

Sorry for going on so long.

I'll shut up now.

Ed Haynes

[Buddy]

Hi Gordon , Frank & Ed

Now dont go thinking im Anal about wearing surgical outfits when I handle my collection

And I agree with Gordon 100% about the badges & medels being dragged through the mud in war & thats the way I like most of my badges to have that feel to it.
I handle all my daggers with gloves,
I wouldnt discount the idea, of not getting my desiel stained, boot leather mitts on my badges( and this is after I wash,em 3-4 times), by wearing gloves.

Just a little obcesive/compulsive input
and I got to say all your input is extremly vauable to me
Thank you