Patina ends & dirt begins

[Buddy]

Just curious as to where you folks think that
A nice Patina ends & just plain dirt begins
Also haveing figured out that fine line , would you clean dirt

Thanks

[Lorenzo Brown]

A "patina" is a natural discoloring of a medal's surface that comes from long exposure to the elements. It is a change of the metal ITSELF. Dirt, on the other hand, is any foreign substance that is sitting ON the medal.

A patina does not "wash away" easily. Usually you have to polish the medal to remove the patina. IMO this is NOT ADVISABLE because many collectors, such as myself, like the natural aged appearance that a patina has.

Dirt will usually come off by soaking the medal is a soapy solution, then dabbing it away gently. I usually remove dirt from my medals because I believe that prolonged exposure and contact with "dirt" will eventually cause corrosion. Look at a "ground dug" medal to see what I mean. In most cases, removing the dirt will not affect the patina...However that is NOT ALWAYS the case.....

If the dirt has been sitting on the medal for a prolonged period of time, then the portion of metal under the dirt will not have developed a patina at the same rate as the exposed metal. Thus, when you remove the dirt, the underlying metal may be brighter and fresher looking that the rest of the patina. Also, if there is a gooey or sticking substance on the medal, like tar or adhesive, the removal of that substance can "lift" the underlying patina away, again leaving a brighter surface where the substance had been.

I think the answer is that you have to assess each situation independently and proceed with caution when cleaning your medals.

[Luftm40]

Over the years, I have come to take a dim view of cleaning. From my experience, it always ends up detracting from a piece , and in this day and age of super fakes, dirt, patina, wear...call it what you want, are some of the only true indicators we have left. Clean an item, and it will be forever "messed with" Just my 2 cents.

[Ed_Haynes]

Complete agreement.

If it is truly grungy and needs something, then warm water, mild soap, a soft cloth, and maybe a super-soft baby's-first-toothbrush would be the limit.

But generally, do nothing. Please. The dirt is part of the history and you run the real risk of doing some irreversible harm.

Ed Haynes

[Chris Boonzaier]

I remember polishing my first KC.....
I was young.

[Buddy]

Ok.
Heres why I want to Know. I got a German Cross in gold from Detlev
Looks like an unmarked Zimmerman.
The black swaz in the middle is clean as the day it was issued, the patina on the metal star burst is well patina'd ( wouldnt touch that).
But the white enamel was dirty,I could almost wipe clean with my finger, to a mint condition. I always assummed "patina" was the natural oxidation , or ageing process , by which a metal,, cellouos , ect,,ect,,took on a toned color (darker in most cases) I became in essance part of the metal
EX
Silver when it tarnishes for to long gets Black spots that cannot be removed
I do consider tarnished siler to be Patinae'd
it not a matter of cleaning to wash away the history ,, I was think more in terms of just removing the dirt build up on the white enamal

[Frank Heukemes]

Hi Buddy,

Your remarks are a bit confusing:

1) there is no white enamel on a DKiG (or DKiS) just black enamel filling the swastika´s frame.

2) the star burst should have no patina either. The FINISH there can only come off by wear and expose the base metal.

I suggest you post a pic of the cross and do nothing to it in the meantime.

Cheers, Frank

[Buddy]

Hi Frank
I will post a pix a soon as possible
Im probley not useing the correct wording.
Im refering to the white "yoke" on which the black enameled swaz sits

you state: that the starburst cannot patina only the finish can come off through wear ( paraphrasing here)
the most outer parts of the star burst , which ive seen on mint oneare slightly silverish in color,, mine is dark & aged

dam I wish I could post a pictur,, it worth a thousand words
this is why I hate Instant messaging
Thanks foor your input. Frank & all
I will leave it as Detlev sent it

Love the letter of authenticity Detleve send,, ther pretty cool
all dealer should folloew suit

[Buddy]

heres a pix of the obverse,, hope i did this right
never uploades a pic before

[Buddy]

Heres the reverse

[Gordon Williamson]

Seems there is a lot of confusion over terms here. Patina on silver is indeed attractive and much to be desired as anyone in the antiques trade will tell you. Patina is however generally defined as a "luster" or "Glow" which comes to silver caused by tiny surface scratching from regular use of polishing.

The unsightly black or purplish finish which silver will attain if not cleaned is actually a mildly corrosive chemical reaction between the silver and sulphur in the atmosphere to form a layer of silver-sulphide Just as iron if left unprotected will react with oxygen in the atmosphere to form ferric-oxide (rust), so will silver to form silver sulphide (Tarnish). All it tells you is that the item has not been cleaned for a lengthy period, but a fake left for a long period will develop the same Tarnish. Tarnish develops at different rates depending on how the silver is stored. A fake item kept near a coastal area (i.e. salt air) will develop Tarnish far faster than a genuine item which has been properly cared for.

Tarnish is no longer a good way of determining originality and is no real indicator of age as fakers have long since been able to artificially induce darkening of silver- done too quickly it can look too purplish, but it is far from difficult. It has been done for decades in the coin collecting hobby as a way of "recovering" old coins which have been buffed /polished. Try wrapping a polished silver coin into the middle of a bundle of rubber bands. Fakers also use this method to age down new looking fake bullion embroidered items.

[Buddy]

Thanks Gordon
for the tip on one of the fakers techniqes
Ive no doubt that the DK is real, I for once did some reserch on these medals
But the term patina Vs dirt was always a gray area with me
mush appreciated

[ChrisJ]

Patina ?

Quote
"But the term patina Vs dirt was always a gray area with me"
wunquote
was the pun intended Buddy ?

The support what Gordon says... having been involved in other areas of the antique trade as a dealer I can tell you that a silver sulphide is very easy to reproduce on silver items....boiled egg yoke is a favourite, and the rubber bands (as Gordon mentions) are only two methods. To reproduce the the lovely blued hue of (what is often termed "case hardening") aged pieces is rather more difficult.
I will OCCASIONALLY gently wash a piece, and then dry very very carefully... but be very careful of the backing disc of the DKiG, Buddy. For all collectors though, I would recommend that as a general policy dont handle items without wearing white jewlers glooves... acids and oils from handling are best avoided.

[Buddy]

Hi Chris
Actually it was a pun, but I thought no one got it

I own a few WW2 daggers a 1 model luft & a SA swimmer
I use white gloves, altho I must admitt i useally don/ or forget with low end items
Thanks for your input

[Sebastian Bianchi]

(Put on flak helmet, tighten chinstrap)

IMO what you have there is dirt and crud, and I would give it a clean.

Seba