Rudel's Knight cross

[Darrell]

I find this quote rather interesting and something I never knew or heard about before .... was this correct???

QUOTE*During his career, Rudel flew over 2530 (around 400 of his sorties were flown in a Focke-Wulf 190 fighter plane during whichhe was credit with 11 air victories) missions and destroyed around 150 various artillery pieces, 519 tanks, around 1000 various vehicles, 70 landing crafts, 2 Lavochkin La-3 fighters, Il-2 Stormovik and sunk Battleship "Marat", 2 Cruisers and a Destroyer. UNQUOTE*

[Bill H.]

Rudel controversy

I find this quote rather interesting and something I never knew or heard about before .... was this correct???

QUOTE*During his career, Rudel flew over 2530 (around 400 of his sorties were flown in a Focke-Wulf 190 fighter plane during whichhe was credit with 11 air victories) missions and destroyed around 150 various artillery pieces, 519 tanks, around 1000 various vehicles, 70 landing crafts, 2 Lavochkin La-3 fighters, Il-2 Stormovik and sunk Battleship "Marat", 2 Cruisers and a Destroyer. UNQUOTE*

In Stuka Pilot, Rudel mentions that he flew FW-190s. One of his air victories, though, was in a Stuka. A Soviet ace was on him and his rear gunner was either out of ammo or wounded or something but Rudel saved their skins by diving and then pulling out at the last moment causing the Soviet ace to auger in.

I tell ya, heck of a movie here. Just leave out all the neo-nazi nonsence. I don't recall in the book that Rudel mentions that he was a party member but he does think a lot of Hitler. At one point Hitler was showing Rudel the plans for an attack in Russia. Rudel had just flown support for the Panzer commander who was to lead the attack and recalled the commander saying he had one operational tank and it was a command vehicle with no main gun. Hitler called the staff in to review the plan and the were forced to admit that X number of the tanks were being transported on flat cars and were scheduled to arrive before the attack and X number were expected to be repaired and made ready for the attack etc. etc. When Hitler discovered that there were no assets on site he cancelled the attack. Rudel attributes Hitler's bad tactical moves to staff members not wanting to report bad news or being over optimistic or outright lying to Hitler. Rudel was in awe of Hitler's depth of knowledge on weapons systems and could converse with pilots about planes as easily as he could with U-boats, rockets, tanks and infantry weapons with those who designed and used them. Clearly, the reader gets the picture that Rudel was a devoted Hitler admirer from Stuka Pilot.

Rudel did work with the American defense industry and was one of the principal consultants on the USAF A-10 ground attack aircraft. Apparantly, the US Government was prepared to overlook his misguided politics.

Does anyone know if Rudel was a Nazi because of their policy regarding Jews or was he just ignoring/denying that part because he was enamored of Hitler? I didn't get anti-semitism from his writing but it was clear he thought Hitler was a genius. Maybe I missed something? Its been years since I read the book.

Cheers, Bill

[Ludwig]

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National socialism is more than just the question about jews.
I would say the jewish question was quite a small part of it – during the real era, that is.
Today one can get the impression that it was the only thing that mattered.
By the way, in my eyes Rudel – who I admire!!! – looked a little bit jewish himself.
I don´t think he gave the jews much thought at all.

[fknorr]

Does anyone know if Rudel was a Nazi because of their policy regarding Jews or was he just ignoring/denying that part because he was enamored of Hitler? I didn't get anti-semitism from his writing but it was clear he thought Hitler was a genius. Maybe I missed something?

National socialism is more than just the question about jews.
I would say the jewish question was quite a small part of it – during the real era, that is.
Today one can get the impression that it was the only thing that mattered.

Since none of us knew the man it would be hard to tell his real reasons but if you have read any accounts from actual German participants of WWII, most had no real love of Hitler or the party in general but did admire them (if that is the right word to use) for bringing Germany's pride back, putting people back to work and putting food on the tables of the average German. (Even if it was mostly because of the gearing up for war that it all came about.)

Even before the end of the war and definitely since the end of the war propagandists and spin artists have turned Germany's sole desire for starting WWII into just destroying the Jews, or that anti-Semitism was somehow started by Nazi Germany. This whole school of thought is so far-fetched and ultimately laughable to those who know history and/or do not have some agenda to prop up. It is just like the American Civil War, slavery was only a small part of what the war was all about, but you hardly hear of the other reasons behind it today and I doubt if the other reasons are even taught in our schools anymore. If they are I am sure they are down-played and/or rushed through.


We need to get this back on the track of Rudel's awards before the wackos get a hold of the thread and it ultimately gets closed down.

[Okrach]

H.U. Rudel

It is no secret that H.U. Rudel was Nasi supporter and was fascinated by some of the Nasi Ideas.

Indeed, Rudel was a dedicated German Soldier but after reading his book 'Trotzdem' (original German printing) one may have feeling there was something like a Nazi shadow in his relations and descriptions. You need to bear in mind that all the Rudel's books were released AFTER the war...

As the BEST Schlachtflieger , and the highest decorated German Soldier it is not particularly popular to talk about Rudel and his fascination and devotion to Hitler's Germania Empire Ideas. This caused a myth about the flawless pilot who had never had nothing to do with Nasis.

After all, everyone knows about Hartmann, Barkhorn, Rall and others but Rudel, although he was the only one who received the highest III Reich award is not so well known... Why?.... Is that because of his political past?... Maybe...

[Ludwig]

Back to the track

Right after the war Rudel sold the diamonds from one of his awards, to "bring home some bacon". He – as far as I know – didn´t want to tell which award.
He later had it restored.

[WalterB]

For what it is worth, there was an interesting thread in this Forum about a document that indicated that Rudel was also a member of the SS. I can't find the link, but I believe Robin Lumsden, among others, commented on it.

[fknorr]

It is no secret that H.U. Rudel was Nasi supporter and was fascinated by some of the Nasi Ideas.

Indeed, Rudel was a dedicated German Soldier but after reading his book 'Trotzdem' (original German printing) one may have feeling there was something like a Nazi shadow in his relations and descriptions. You need to bear in mind that all the Rudel's books were released AFTER the war...

As the BEST Schlachtflieger , and the highest decorated German Soldier it is not particularly popular to talk about Rudel and his fascination and devotion to Hitler's Germania Empire Ideas. This caused a myth about the flawless pilot who had never had nothing to do with Nasis.

After all, everyone knows about Hartmann, Barkhorn, Rall and others but Rudel, although he was the only one who received the highest III Reich award is not so well known... Why?.... Is that because of his political past?... Maybe...

One of the folks I was worried about, lets get this topic back in line or it'll be gone (if past history is any indication)

[fknorr]

For what it is worth, there was an interesting thread in this Forum about a document that indicated that Rudel was also a member of the SS. I can't find the link, but I believe Robin Lumsden, among others, commented on it.

Really insignificant...many people had SS memberships but does not mean they were anti-semites or supporters of Hitler or Himmler.

Many folks were actually party members but did not agree w/party philosopy...

[George Stimson]

Is there nothing more to be said about Rudel's RK?

[Bill H.]

Is there nothing more to be said about Rudel's RK?

Humble appologies for getting the thread off topic. My bad.

Regards to all, Bill Huber

[fknorr]

Are there any unit histories or books written by other Stuka tank busters that would merit further reading?

[WBallok]

The Rudel awards were stolen by a British military policeman and ended up in the early 1980s in a private museum in London's Whitehall. There was a court case after Colonel Rudel's widow sued the owner of the museum, Paul Raymond, a porn millionaire, and a British judge did not agree to let Frau Rudel have the awards because the English were scared to see their museums full of stolen property empty! They give back Rudel's medals then they must give back to the Greeks the Parthenon marbles! In the end, there was a deal and now the widow of Rudel has the awards. Rudel never was a prisoner of the Ivans. It was Englishmen who stole this brave soldier's medals. Rudel was prisoner of the Western forces not the Ivans, who would have murdered him.

Bill

[Okrach]

One of the folks I was worried about, lets get this topic back in line or it'll be gone (if past history is any indication)

Hi Fran,

You couldn't live properly when You didn't post something like this above, could You? I have read enough of Your posts to know that You are not particularly pleasant person to deal with (and sorry to say, I am not the only one who thinks that). Your unnecessary hostility and attitude (sarcasm) when You find someone's post to be off topic or presenting other point of view I find rather childish. Just for once (Christmas Time) try to be nice for people

I know Fran, You're a great fan of mine (still angry after our first struggle (Dresden) ) But this time strict on topic

Just my few cents

In his book 'Trotzdem' Rudel wrote that after he surrendered his unit to Americans (he ordered every pilot to do the crash landing, but one of them had his girl on board (!!) and did textbook landing, so the Amies got one undamaged Fw190 from the most famous StG) he had his awards for only several hours more. During the very first night of his imprisonment he and his companions woke up robbed of the awards. Rudel did not mention if he lost his RK (it seems to be pretty hard to steal something what is attached to your throat without awaking the owner) but the rest was gone (anyone know some more?). On the other day Rudel did official protest to the commander of the airbase he was held iin who promised to do his best. Although the base personel was searched (some awards were restored) Rudel's were gone.

On the other hand one original color movie shows Rudel before he is helped to enter Dakota plane (his transport to UK I suppose). He is wearing his RK but the other awards are gone. But he is accompanied by Galland and Kesselring and they have nothing but RKs left... (however it is clearly seen that Rudel had his Golden Oaks before he flew to UK)

So it is pretty sure that the awards that were stolen from Rudel in the Air base during his first night as prisoner were breast decorations i.e. EK I, DKiGmB, GFABmB, FFSmB, (Ribbon Bar - Rudel as well as his crew did surrender in his official uniform). On the color movie I mentioned his uniform is not visible (he wore his long coat) but on the others there are only holes on the places where the breast awards previously were.

Hmm... interesting is what could have happened to the other RK decoarations (Oaks, Oaks & Swords and Diamonds...)

Any comments to that?

PS. I hope Fran You are satisfied now, aren't You?

[fknorr]

Most of your last post was quite on topic and I congratulate you...a rare treat.

As for your personal attacks, please refrain or handle in PM...it tends to start trouble and close down threads.