Rudel's Knight cross

[Okrach]

Most of your last post was quite on topic and I congratulate you...a rare treat.

As for your personal attacks, please refrain or handle in PM...it tends to start trouble and close down threads.

One of the folks I was worried about, lets get this topic back in line or it'll be gone (if past history is any indication)

[DavidM]

The Rudel awards were stolen by a British military policeman and ended up in the early 1980s in a private museum in London's Whitehall. There was a court case after Colonel Rudel's widow sued the owner of the museum, Paul Raymond, a porn millionaire, and a British judge did not agree to let Frau Rudel have the awards because the English were scared to see their museums full of stolen property empty! They give back Rudel's medals then they must give back to the Greeks the Parthenon marbles! In the end, there was a deal and now the widow of Rudel has the awards. Rudel never was a prisoner of the Ivans. It was Englishmen who stole this brave soldier's medals. Rudel was prisoner of the Western forces not the Ivans, who would have murdered him.

Bill

Hello

I don't know where the information quoted by Bill came from, but it appears to be at odds with Oberst Rudels own account of events - and by his own account he was still in possesion of most of his awards in 1979 - 1980. Vern Bowen met with and interviewed Oberst Rudel in 1979 for his book 'The Prussian and German Iron Cross'. Reproduced below is page 256 from this book in which Bowen records:

"I asked Oberst Rudel how he managed to save his valuable collection of awards from further theft during his post war internment (the 'dupla' of the 'Diamonds' had been stolen during his first night of captivity with the Americans at Kitzingen Aerodrome, together with other personal articles). He told me they were hidden in the camp in which he was interned and that another officer P.O.W offered tp escape from the camp and smugle them out for him. At the time in question, Oberst Rudel was still recovering from a leg amputation and was unable to effect his own escape."

Bowen goes on to report Rudel as stating that the other officer did indeed escape and held Rudels awards in safe keeping until his release. Bowen also states that Oberst Rudel allowed him to hold and examine his awards during his visit, (The Prussian and German Iron Cross, p 253).

Bearing in mind that Oberst Rudel died on Dec 18th 1982, and was in possesion of his medals up to that time, if the awards did end up in a private museum in the early 1980s, then they had to be either stolen from his house after his death, (in which case any judge would have ordered their return, as they would do with any stolen property), or else sold by a member of his family.

Regards
David

[Okrach]

"I asked Oberst Rudel how he managed to save his valuable collection of awards from further theft during his post war internment (the 'dupla' of the 'Diamonds' had been stolen during his first night of captivity with the Americans at Kitzingen Aerodrome, together with other personal articles). He told me they were hidden in the camp in which he was interned and that another officer P.O.W offered tp escape from the camp and smugle them out for him. At the time in question, Oberst Rudel was still recovering from a leg amputation and was unable to effect his own escape."

Hmmm.. what do You mean by 'dupla' Diamonds - Golden or Silver Diamonds?

On the color movie he wears his KC with golden oaks and diamonds.... This movie was made just before start to England.

[Tiger 1]

One would assume that Oberst Rudel would be wearing the highest award that he was entitled to wear at the time of his surrender. If that was the case then the dupla would have been the Golden Oakleaves, Swords and Diamonds.

I have an interesting B&W photo of a somber looking Oberst Rudel taken on May 8th, 1945 at Kitzingen, Germany after his surrender. The picture shows Oberst Rudel and Major Karl Kennel leaving a building. He is carrying his leather overcoat and his decorations are well shown and seem to be complete. He is wearing his KC with diamonds award as well as his 2000 mission flight clasp, DK, EKI, and both his Pilot's badge with diamonds and his standard pilot's badge at the same time. This is a private photo was taken by an American soldier.

Tony

[WalterB]

Really insignificant...many people had SS memberships but does not mean they were anti-semites or supporters of Hitler or Himmler.

Many folks were actually party members but did not agree w/party philosopy...

Hence my caveat..."For what it is worth".

As for Rudel's decorations, I recall reading in his book "Stuka Pilot" that upon crash landing on an American-controlled airbase (after flying westwards to avoid Soviet capture), Rudel mentions that the first American who approached him (while he was still in the Stuka) immediately reached out to try and grab Rudel's Golden Oakleaves. Rudel apparently closed the cockpit back up to avoid this attempted robbery. Rudel was under the impression that this would have turned ugly had not more Americans arrived at the scene shortly thereafter. Later, he recounts how he woke up after the first(?) night there and discovered that not only were all his decorations stolen, but also his prosthetic leg! Rudel mentioned something about how the thief might boast that this was a fake leg from a "high ranking Gerry". Anyway, Rudel went directly to the commander and asked him if this behavior (the theft) was typical of American troops. Apparently the commander investigated and the book says that Rudel's awards and prosthetic leg were returned.

I have seen color pictures of Rudel's KC, Golden Oakleaves and other awards taken after the war. Rudel's KC is unmistakeable, given that the black paint of the front of the KC was so heavily chipped and there are period WWII pictures of Rudel with the heavily chipped KC. Anyway, interesting stuff, IMHO.

[DavidM]

Hello

The term 'Dupla' is, according to Bowen, the way Rudel described a duplicate set of the golden oak leaves with swords and diamonds, which was presented to him by Adolph Hitler on 1st January 1945, alongside the 'original', high quality set. Although Bowen doesn't state if Rudel got the 'Dupla' set back, the reader must assume he did as these also feature in the post war photos of Rudels medals as seen in Bowens book.

This would also lend credence to the version of events that Walter B has described, and which I have heard mention of before as well.

Regards
David

[David C]

..., but one of them had his girl on board (!!) and did textbook landing, so the Amies got one undamaged Stukas from the most famous StG) ..

The squadron had been operating FW190s for quite some time by then and it was in these aircraft that they made their surrender. The girl was concealed in the fuselage.

I was under the impression that Rudel's awards were stolen 'and' recovered that first 24 hours in captivity.

Cheers,
David.

[David C]

dupe.

[WalterB]

The squadron had been operating FW190s for quite some time by then and it was in these aircraft that they made their surrender. The girl was concealed in the fuselage.

I was under the impression that Rudel's awards were stolen 'and' recovered that first 24 hours in captivity.

Cheers,
David.

Yes! You are absolutely right about the FW190. The book doesn't specifically mention the type of aircraft and I incorrectly made an assumption it was a Stuka. Good catch!

[fknorr]

Is there anywhere a record of how many "Kills" Rudel acheived in either plane (Stuka vs. FW's)?

[Okrach]

Yes! You are absolutely right about the FW190. The book doesn't specifically mention the type of aircraft and I incorrectly made an assumption it was a Stuka. Good catch!

True, they were 190's - I made same mistake

[Okrach]

Is there anywhere a record of how many "Kills" Rudel acheived in either plane (Stuka vs. FW's)?

Rudel is credited with 9 kills. 7 Fighters (!) and 2 Il-2. The other sources are talkin about at least 11 aerial kills. Rudel did many flight 'unoffcially' - he was grounded by the officials many times but he always refused to stay outside the cockpit (he always denied the next award if it ment his grounding).

Again here comes the next question if these kills are Rudel's alone or Rudel's crew? 9 or 11 it means that Uli was not only the Stuka ace but also a fighter ace (>5kills) - a hell of pilot he was If we agree to 11 he would be among Jagd-Experten

Among his victims was probably Russian Ace Lev Shestakov (15 kills). After the air battle it was reported (by Russians) that Shestakov died during an attack against a Ju-87. When he destroyed it, his plane lost control due to wake turbulence, and he spun in. In reality, it may be that he died fighting the famous German Stuka pilot, Hans-Ulrich Rudel. This is how the story comes from Rudel's memoirs:

"Was he shot down by Gadermann, or did he go down because of the backwash from my engine during these tight turns? It doesn't matter. My headphones suddenly exploded in confused screams from the Russian radio; the Russians have observed what happened and something special seems to have happened... From the Russian radio-messages, we discover that this was a very famous Soviet fighter pilot, more than once appointed as Hero of the Soviet Union. I should give him a credit: he was a good pilot" (Hans-UIrich Rudel).

But it is off topic

[fknorr]

I apologize I meant how many ground kills with either plane as I am sure Rudel was not taking to the air in his FW as a figher pilot but was using his FW in a ground attack role. So is there any information as to what ground targets he was given credit for in an FW.

[Okrach]

I apologize I meant how many ground kills with either plane as I am sure Rudel was not taking to the air in his FW as a figher pilot but was using his FW in a ground attack role. So is there any information as to what ground targets he was given credit for in an FW.

It is a good question, but MOST of the time Rudel flew his Stukas (Tank Buster when it was ready to fly). Of course even when flying 190 he did not saved his ammo seeing ground targets. It is rather impossible to answer it In his memoirs he wrote alway 'several' 'few' trucks, tanks etc...

[Okrach]

A nice page about H.U. Rudel

http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Stuka/Rudel/rudel.htm

It is a fine summary illustrated with MANY pictures. I recommend

Of course there is a LOT about his awards

RUDEL'S SUMMARY:

2530 combat sorties:519 russian tanks
1 battleship
1 detroyer
70 landing boats
800+ motorized vehicles
150+ Artillery -, Pak and anti-aircraft positions
9 air victories (7 fighters, 2 Il 2)
...and many shelters, bridges and supply lines.