A closer look at an early "800' S&L

[tom hansen]

Thanks for the detailed analysis, Dietrich!

I think it is interesting that the early juncker RKs have similarly thin digits. Dietrich says there is no signs of reassembly to reduce the contention of post war assembled parts. It would seem very odd to have a completely flawless A frame cross complete with patina that was assembled post war. I am a believer in the piece, despite the differences from the known S&L cores.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Hi Andy,

I'm glad that you didn't see anything to change your views, because I think there is nothing to do so! The reverse numerals are also 'off', but close. They are also thinner.

Your analogy is very correct! But if some people do not accept this (i.e. the "not knowing all") they might condemn good and, more importantly, historicly (from a manufacturing point of view) relevant pieces as 'fakes' and therefore block any furthering of the hobby out of ignorance. I know that I will be accused again of "pushing fakes for dealers"

Whatever the reason was for this core to be different we might never know, but we must accept the existence and try to find it's proper place.

Tom's acurate observation about thin Juncker numerals for early pieces is telling and thanks for bringing it up!

A Juncker cross could have a pink core with a blue frame and - as long as it has the 'fingerprints' - would be declared a special order for the secret gay group of the RSHA. Everything goes with Juncker, nothing is allowed for all the others, so it seems.

Dietrich

[Biro]

Dietrich..

Was ist dieses?

M.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Hi Marshall,

nothing. Just an area without Schmutz. No 'bridge' or something.

Dietrich

[Bob Hritz]

I cannot find any fault in the cross and believe it to be completely original.

I can't explain the individual piece, but I do know a bit about the die striking and die forging process.

A new die is sharp and crisp, sometime so sharp and crisp that it is difficult to remove the struck or forged piece from the die. This requires a repolish and a widening or tapering of the deepest and finest recesses of the die, to facilitate the clean removal of the struck/forged object.

A new die is clean and requires constant cleaning to avoid contamination which produces flaws. This cleaning can be a simple wire brush wiping out any debris or as much as a polishing and deep cleaning of the entire die. Every time a die is polished and deep cleaned, the struck/forged product can have slightly larger or more bold raised detail. The differences will be evident from the minute amount of die material that is removed during polishing. This is easily seen with coins. The first strikes are always much cleaner and more crisp than those after a die has been cleaned and re-polished.

I would expect the earliest strikes of any object to have the thinner and more sharp details, especially something with as much dimention as a Knight's Cross center. With each polishing or deep cleaning of the die, the raised portions will become slightly, albiet ALMOST un-noticably, more broad and less fine.

Using malleable iron also requires some hand finishing of the newly struck cores. The edges must be cleaned up and the swastikas and dates are probably cleaned on a bronze of soft iron wire wheel. I have seen striations on the center of Juncker RK swastikas which leads me to believe these were hand worked, depending on the amount of time the artisan wanted to attain his view of satisfaction.

However, I do believe the first circumstance to be the most logical; that the centers may have been difficult to extract from the die because the raised swastika and dates were too thin with steeply vertical sides. This would make most die makers want to place a slight taper on the sides of the dates and swastika, making extraction easier. To taper the sides, the bases of the swastika and dates will be slightly wider than the top surfaces, leaving a slight pyramidal profile.

Good luck in the search for the truth.

Bob Hritz

[Tim Schreiner]

I think its wonderful that there are those in these wonderful hobby that are trustworthy enough to send such a item to them for inspection. Considering the brief amount of time that Mike knew Dietrich, and that he is located overseas, and I think it's great that Dietrich has taken the time, and effort to determine it's authenticity. I'm glad such people are involved in this hobby.

I'm happy as well for Mike with such a nice find.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Thank you Tim,

but only "overseas" if you consider the Great Lakes as such - I live in Michigan!
Anyway, there are lots of trustworthy people and I would and did not hesitate to send my goodies to some of the people I only met on the forum and never in real live. That is part of the hobby and a certain honor code also. Should not be that special, I guess.

Dietrich

[Tim Schreiner]

Sorry about that. I have no idea what made me think you were in Europe.

[Mike P.]

Dietrich , I really appreciate all the time you spent documenting my Cross . I know you said you enjoyed spending all the hours researching it but , it was a lot of work. And who benefits from this ? All of us ..because now there's another S&L example out there that's been documented and accepted as real .I know that 20 and even 100 years from now collectors will still be referring to the works that Dietrich Maerz, Gordon Williamson and many other Authors and Researchers have contibuted to this hobby. Years from now certain items will also be attributed to a named collection ..look at how many items were sold from Ed Stadnicki's collection . His name will always be connected with certain items. In the same way ..the RK "fingerprints" that you are documenting will also lock in these RK's with certain collections ..and time frame.
Tim you're right, I didn't think twice about sending the Cross to Dietrich because as he said ..there is a Code of Honor among Military Collectors. I have to admit that I've seen the "Code" take a few hits with some of the newer collectors who feel that it's "Investment" not "History" they are dealing with . But luckily , I think the "Code" is alive and well ..the the "Investment only" collectors come and go (and drive some prices up while they're at it) Most of us are in it for the long haul ..we don't get bored that easily .
There were many out there who (as Bob Hritz says ) have the "Eye" , who can tell by the feel/look of an item if it's real or not. We knew this RK was real ..the variation date font made it interesting so ..I really wanted to see what Dietrich could find out about it under the Microscope. Now at least if another one like it shows up ..people won't be so quick to say --
"It will be much less a headache than spending $8,000.00 +/- on a Cross that turns out bad just because a little research wasn't done!!!"
**********<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
Dietrich ... on a lighter note ..since this is a new "variation" S&L...do you or I get to name it or ..do we have to run a contest for the best name. You know ..like how the Botanists name a new discovered flower or whatever ..maybe it hasn't come to that yet

[Darrell]

chef .... nice cross. Good analysis Dietrich ...

Kind of quiet in here isnt it?

[AZartman]

Mike-

I look forward to meeting you shortly and showing you the recent lot. Thanks for passing along this thread. I learned a lot from it. And the silence is telling... Of course congrats on a nice piece of HISTORY.

Alex