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**Prosper Keating** · 05-26-2003, 01:33 PM

For the record - original wartime Crosses where the eye dips very slightly into the edge of the frame DO exist and are known from clear original wartime portrait photos.

Really? Oh dear! Could my Parisian friend's RKT General group have been OK after all? The dipped eye RK reminded us of a Steinhauer & Lück cross in overall quality. But he had read somewhere that dipped eye RKs were a big no-no and so, back it went. I don't think I shall say anything to him.

Hmmmmmmm. The salient question here is: who made the original dipped eye Ritterkreuz?

PK

**Gordon Williamson** · 05-26-2003, 04:04 PM

Engelbert Bockhoff, commander I./ Pz Aufkl.Abt 9 and Major Gerhard Fischer of 8./Pz.Regt. 23 can both be found in photos where the dipped eye RK is being worn.
Best print of the Bockhoff appears in "Field Uniforms of German Army Panzer Forces in WW2" page 151. Very clearly shows a dipped eye RK.

**merdock** · 05-26-2003, 04:24 PM

Hi all ,
Even though i had now laid my cross to rest it appears i my have opened a can of worms dipped eye RK did exist infact and we have photo evidence but no known maker pherhaps after all junker did have a side line,
how many people out there have disposed of crosses that were said to be wrong on this assumption alone.
i find it strange that the 2 winners mentioned both were awarded their crosses at about the same time so obviously by the same manufacturer ,this manufacturer is not known so who's to say who the manufacturer is ?
why did gordon not mention this before to dismiss a item on a rear view only is not assesing the facts from the front it clearly looks the part?
All the best Merdock

**Dave Kane** · 05-26-2003, 07:18 PM

I wonder if the 'appearance' might not be similar to the 'round' Luftwaffe badge and the angle or shadows makes it seem like a dipping of the ring.....
Afterall Steve W. is a dealer and he also offers the Balloon observer badge in all of its grades.
All of it could very well be based on poor photo shoots..
John

**George Stimson** · 05-27-2003, 09:16 AM

Based on the pics I've seen, I'd say that the rings really do dip.

**Brian S** · 05-27-2003, 01:50 PM

The eyelet is only a small part of the entire construction. From period photos we can see the numerals and eyelets and cross hatching of the round corner RK to ascertain a match. From only a dip in an eyelet to match an RK is NOT enough to confirm manufacture pre-May 1945.

Take it to the next steps of matching the cross in question to period photos.

**merdock** · 06-04-2003, 02:13 PM

Hi,
Does this cross in the photo have a dipping eye ,I'm sure this cross in the pic is original.
Merdock

**Brian S** · 06-04-2003, 03:21 PM

What's the point? It also has a swastika. It's also a silver frame.

All RK's w/swas and silver frames are real?

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