More "Rounder"

[Dietrich Maerz]

..... a common additive to this type of paint barium stearate is also a common component and I believe barium is one of the elements ID'd in RK paint previously....

Mike,

Yes, Baruim was found in RK paint, mainly in the greater quantities with the Rounder paint. It was looked at isolated, i.e. just Barium in it's elemental form and deemed a poison (which it is) and it was therefore strongly suggested that the cross is a fake - along the line "Barium = poinson = not good = fake".

What was not looked at is that Barium cannot exist in it's pure form without 'exploding' when in contact to oxigen and even for the biggest critics it should be clear that a Rounder does not explode on air contact.

Further investigation ( I'm still working on a Rounder article...) showed that the most common form of natural Barium is Baryt (BaSO4) which is used since centuries as a paint filler and that in Germany literally hundreds of Baryt mines exist since hundred of years as a strong local source of income. The composition of the Rounder paint with S and BA is therefore a clear indication of Baryt.

Why am I posting this here?

It is very easy to say something wrong and it sticks and grows thru the internet like a virus worm. If this analysis would have be done on a Rounder and not on a K&Q with expertise from Detlev, you can be sure that the mentioning of something like "Dioctyl Sebacate" which it's (todays) use is as a plasticizer for plastic and polymeres would be a 100%, slam dunk, no questions asked, over, never to be discussed again indication for the Rounder being a production of the early 80's (since this was the point in time it was seen by some the first time). As was the Silicium and the Barium...

New technical methods like SEM and FTIR do give unemotional results, the interpretation is in the heads of the people and should be done without agenda, un-biased and -most importantly - correct!

Dietrich

[George Stimson]

Does anybody know whether Barium is still used in paint today? I mean, if it's some kind of "poison" it's possible that it was phased out of paint production at some point, much like lead was phased out of house paint production in (I believe) the 1970s, or its use was stopped like the fire-guilding badge finishing process was generally halted because it is deemed "too dangerous" today to be used outside of some Third World countries.
If Barium was phased out of paint production at some point it might be an indicator that items painted with Barium-inclusive paint were produced before that point in time. (Unless, of course, someone painted the item with old paint.... )

[Dietrich Maerz]

George,

Barium (in it's pure and poisenous form) was NEVER used in paint, it was (and is) always Baryt as a white pigment and as a neutral filler.

And you touch base on a fundamental problem here. Even when it is proven that the Rounder paint (or any other paint for that matter) is clearly 'not modern', the critics will always say that "they" used old paint. Something that nobody can prove otherwise. However, the opposite will always be true, i.e. "it is not bone paint, so it must be a fake".

Dietrich

[George Stimson]

Dietrich

Thank you!

[tom hansen]

"Even when it is proven that the Rounder paint (or any other paint for that matter) is clearly 'not modern', the critics will always say that "they" used old paint. Something that nobody can prove otherwise. However, the opposite will always be true, i.e. "it is not bone paint, so it must be a fake".





WHEN it is PROVEN that rounder paint is not modern!?!? How about a big IF it is PROVEN that rounder paint is not modern? So far, there is no evidence to suggest that rounder paint IS period. It certainly is different than that used on every other knights cross, which is not a good thing, but does not definitively state that it is modern paint. However, it also definately does not suggest that it is period paint.

Do we know that the compound in the K&Q that Marc test is pre or post 1945? I do not see any information that states this one way or another. Maybe it is a period compound, maybe it is not. However, if it IS determined to be a period compound, would the absence of this convince the rounder propronants that their pieces are not wartime? Probably not. Would the presence of a modern compound, with say a patent date after 1945, convince the rounder propronants that thier pieces are not wartime? I would hope so.

[George Stimson]

Tom

Dietrich is a German, don't forget, and German is his first language. Germans use the word "wenn" for both "when" and "if." It's just a translation thing....

[Dietrich Maerz]

[QUOTE=tom hansen... So far, there is no evidence to suggest that rounder paint IS period. It certainly is different than that used on every other knights cross, which is not a good thing, but does not definitively state that it is modern paint. [/QUOTE]

Tom,

do me a favor and list why you think that the Rounder paint is NOT period. I have to go for a little while, so you have about 2-3 hours to make your case. And please, facts, not suspicions and generalizations.

Thanks,

Dietrich

[Dietrich Maerz]

[Quote ] The contention that barium= poison = fake was NEVER made by anyone, nor was there the silly contention that rounders explode, and is a distortion of events. ...... Any mention of the rounder creates such a visceral, so to speak, emotional response that I doubt any meaningful, objective discussions can ever be made about that piece let alone the paint that is used there. I frankly do not care. [quote]

Tom,

George was so nice to split this of from Marc's thread for not to disturb his thread with the always heated Rounder discussion....

You say "The contention that barium= poison = fake was NEVER made by anyone, nor was there the silly contention that rounders explode"

Both staements are false! I made the first statement as an example of subtile conjecture and the same applies for the second statement to make a point about pure Barium. I don't know why you (over)react like this?

You did say however:

" It certainly is different than that used on every other knights cross, which is not a good thing, but does not definitively state that it is modern paint. However, it also definately does not suggest that it is period paint. (bold added) "

You should know me by now! I cannot let this stay for the benefit of people that want to learn something here and make up their own mind. A casual reader would come to the conclusion that ALL OTHER RK's have been tested (by you????) and ONLY the Rounder showed a different type of paint (which is also not true)

So far - whether you like it or not - all the components of the Rounder paint are 100% congruent with what one could exspect to find with period paint or better there is nothing to suggest 'modern' paint at all! This applies to the Silicium (which was your first big "no-no") and it applies also the the Barium(sulfat) (which was your second big "no-no)!

The latest 'conclusion' from your side was the finding that the Rounder beading " is inferior to that of other RKs, with much more flawing." Apart from the fact that this doesn't say anything about pre- or post-45 it is a contention that is nearly laughable in the light of the S&L debate and also in regards to the (latest) discussion abiut Meybauer EK1.

I do not claim to know the truth, but when (and not IF) I find it, I will prove it or at least back it up with facts! Till then, let's stay with proven facts!

Dietrich

[tom hansen]

Dietrich-

Facts-

I do not care about rounders and am tired of hearing about them.

There can be no meaningful discussion of that particular piece as there is too much emotion invested by the owners in them. Nothing will change their minds, so there is absolutely no point in discussing them.

[mdj]

picture of KC

Hi guys,

Its not the place to post, i realize . Sorry, but my (old) email account is deactivated (and waiting for new one) so i cant post a tread or send a pm.
I have seen a nice Junker for auction and have one pic to post for opinions. Who wants to post it for me??

If one wants to post it for me, please send a email to m.dejong@woonwaardkrimpen.nl and i will send the picture of the KC.

Its a nice KC in my opinion.

Thank you.

Greetings

Martin de Jong
Holland

[Tiger 1]

Dietrich-

Facts-

I do not care about rounders and am tired of hearing about them.

There can be no meaningful discussion of that particular piece as there is too much emotion invested by the owners in them. Nothing will change their minds, so there is absolutely no point in discussing them.

Hi Tom,

Fact is a 'rounder' recently sold at auction for over $9000.

For what it's worth,

Tony

[StefanK.]

hi tony?


was it sold at ebay?

stefan

[Dietrich Maerz]

Stef,

it was not sold at Ebay but rather at a very reputable US-Auction house (not Manions...). The price was $ 9,200.- and it is a very nice Rounder with the real chemical applied frosting, not the late war painted frosting!!

Dietrich