EK/RK Manufacturing

[Marc Garlasco]

Gents,

I have been reading "The Prussian and German Iron Cross" by Bowen, published in 1986. I am very impressed with what he was able to piece together, and there are some amazing phoos and a wealth of info in it. It is an unsung treasure trove in this hobby.

That said, I am certain there are many things he did not know about regarding EK production. Yet I am faced with questions based on some points he raises. I am sure I will ask more as I read further, but please bear with me and provide you thougths/insight.

This regards the 1939 crosses:

1) Page 29 - S&L and Juncker suggested the 1914 EK rims be used, which would have enabled them to use old stock as well as dies. The idea was never pursued.

Q: Does it not logically follow that one or both produced the Schinkel versions?

2) Page 29-30: The rims were designed by Master Engraver Herr Escher of S&L, as were the new center plates. This next part is from the Bundespraesidialamt Ordenskanzlei: The EK, EK1, and RK were manufactured by a number of firms. All used the same dies which were made by S&L. This was done so there would be no variation.

Q: What does this say about current die theories?

3) Page 31: He goes into some detail about the Gablonzer EK2s (as does Gordon Williamson) regarding the EKs produced after 1942 as they needed to save on materials. The Gablonzer Crosses used a mass manufacturing technique that saved 40% of the materials and greatly increased production. These did not need hand finishing, etc. NOT EVERY company used this method.

Q: Does anyone know which companies used the Gablonz system and is there a way to tell if you have a pre or post 1942 EK2?

As I get further into the book I am sure to have more questions. But I hope this stirs some healthy discussion.
Thanks,
Marc

[Dave Kane]

2) Page 29-30: The rims were designed by Master Engraver Herr Escher of S&L, as were the new center plates. This next part is from the Bundespraesidialamt Ordenskanzlei: The EK, EK1, and RK were manufactured by a number of firms. All used the same dies which were made by S&L. This was done so there would be no variation.






Marc, the way I have understood it is that the 'design', 'style', 'type' and 'method' that S&L utilized to produce Knight's Crosses be utilized...NOT replications (if even possible w/ hand cut die)!


S&L was a very old and keenly established company so even a 'license' fee for the general design might have enriched the company.

[Erickn]

Bowen`s book

Hi Dave, Marc,

I have been wondering when someone would bring up Bowen`s book. Not to stray to far off the subject but, note on pg. 193 the statistical table on 40 RK recipients. At least one 935 4 owner listed. One out of 40. Could there be more?

Erickn

[Marc Garlasco]

Erickn,
Sure, but WHEN did the guy get the RK that Bowen examined? The Bowen book was published in 1986, so a German RKT could very certainly have gotten a "replacement" RK from S&L.
Marc

[Dave Kane]

I must own it!!!! Way back when, obtained from Detlev and well worn with a very well worn neck ribbon. The 'story' at the time was that it was a Panzerman's estate...but unfortunately the facts are lost to history.

[Erickn]

????? who knows for sure?

[Dave Kane]

Unfortunately, Detlev doesn't have recall of the circumstances...but it is unique in that it's a well worn 935/4!!

[Marc Garlasco]

Dave, was the RK worn, or the ribbon???

[coastie]

2) Page 29-30: The rims were designed by Master Engraver Herr Escher of S&L, as were the new center plates. This next part is from the Bundespraesidialamt Ordenskanzlei: The EK, EK1, and RK were manufactured by a number of firms. All used the same dies which were made by S&L. This was done so there would be no variation.






Marc, the way I have understood it is that the 'design', 'style', 'type' and 'method' that S&L utilized to produce Knight's Crosses be utilized...NOT replications (if even possible w/ hand cut die)!


S&L was a very old and keenly established company so even a 'license' fee for the general design might have enriched the company.

So Dave this means that S&L had a patent/copyright on the design and the subsequent manufacturers would pay a fee to produce EK/RK's, for the use of the design?

[Dave Kane]

Marc, the cross shows lovely consistant wear patterns as does the ribbon....

[Dave Kane]

Charlie your question goes way beyond what I could answer....I have books 5" thick from the period laying down the laws, copyright and the specific weights, lengths and even acceptable waste and profit set forth..


I just recall from years back that suggested S&L was one of the companies asked to place a bid on the design etc., and that it was its 'design' that was accepted.


I have to believe that the company was so well established that it had some power of 'suggestion'!

[Dave Kane]

Even prior to the '57 re-issue of awards there were specific mandates regarding IRON and SILVER for the Knight's Cross....

[Erickn]

Unfortunately, Detlev doesn't have recall of the circumstances...but it is unique in that it's a well worn 935/4!!

Hi Dave,

Can you post some Quality Dave Kane photos of this RK & ribbon when you have the time??

Thankx in advance!
Erickn

[coastie]

Gents,


Q: Does anyone know which companies used the Gablonz system and is there a way to tell if you have a pre or post 1942 EK2?

Marc

Marc just read through the section regarding the Gablonz system. Bowen states that the Gablonz method produced a high sheen eliminating burnishing of the rim. Perhaps in looking closely at known manufacturer rims that Gablonz rims can therefore be identified?

The burnishing can be easy to pick out along the frame . I just looked at my "26" EK1 and it does not appear to be burnished, but my l/56 does. I don't have any EK2 with MM to look at.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dave,


what you show is not prior to the 1957 issue, it is the actual "Richtlinien" or "manufacturing advise" with date of August 1957 and was attached to the publication with date 28th of February 1958.

During the 3rd Reich, similiar "Richtlinien" were established but only later on, i.e. mid to end of 1941 between the LDO and the Praesidialkanzlei. Before, as we know, the use of Zinc and other material was seemingly acceptable, BUT NOT after!

The literature mentiones that the first designs for the RK's were done by Juncker and that another design from S&L was also introduced into the discussion by Mr. Tornow, the later director of the LDO. This design was accepted and S&L got the order to manufactur tooling for other companies that also got the order to produce RK's. Those tools were 'cut' by Emil Escher. This is in regards to what Mr. Paul Preuss, former VP of S&L had to say about this.

Dietrich