'4' marked WMC without swords - cased

[Seigfried]

Could I get an opinion on this pse - it looks ok to me.

Thanks,
John

[Seigfried]

2

[Seigfried]

in the case

[Bob Hritz]

Let's see, bright silver 'painted' frosting, Steinhauer & Luck hallmark, the kiss of death. I guess, armed with all the available information, 1953.


Bob Hritz

[Darrell]

Let's see, bright silver 'painted' frosting, Steinhauer & Luck hallmark, the kiss of death. I guess, armed with all the available information, 1953.


Bob Hritz

Bob, wow ... is this due to that article posted by Dietrich?
I wonder what IS and what ISNT anymore

P.S. For what it's worth. This is a textbook example of an Tombak S&L.

[Bob Hritz]

Darrell,


In know, I have one in my collection also. However, the finish identified as the 'painted' white silver frosting is post-war fake on Knight's Crosses, ergo, must be fake on other Steinhauer & Luck awards. Look at the 1953 pricelist on the Steinhauer Fake KC thread. Can't have it both ways!

Last week, it was original. Looks like St&L awards with this 'painted' frosting are all "kaput".

Bob Hritz

[Darrell]

Darrell,


In know, I have one in my collection also. However, the finish identified as the 'painted' white silver frosting is post-war fake on Knight's Crosses, ergo, must be fake on other Steinhauer & Luck awards. Look at the 1953 pricelist on the Steinhauer Fake KC thread. Can't have it both ways!

Last week, it was original. Looks like St&L awards with this 'painted' frosting are all "kaput".

Bob Hritz

I would assume that S&L awards "only" fall under this category in your opinion?

[Bob Hritz]

Darrell,


I have no idea. A few weeks ago, I thought I knew something about medals and badges. Today, I am not too sure.

I don't know what other makers may have been making awards post-war, but that article said Steinhauer and Luck was ONE of the manufacturers.

I just find it curious why any post-war made piece, made in Germany, would have a manufacture identifiable hallmark. Seems like looking to get arrested for violating the De-Nazification laws.

I would gladly have that KvK without swords in my collection, but what do I know?????

Bob Hritz

[Seigfried]

I would gladly have that KvK without swords in my collection, but what do I know?????

Bob Hritz

Guys,
Thanks a lot for the input - I am now confused though! Bob - Am I right in saying that you say that you have one like this, and that you would also have the one I posted, but now suspect that this type is a fake? I am unfamiliar with 'painted' frosting also, I'd assumed that the WMC I posted had a nice original finish!

John

[Bob Hritz]

John,

I have a Steinhauer KvK like yours. I very much like yours.

However, the confusion arises from the threads about St&L Knight's Crosses where there is the judgement that the milky white frosting and bright 'painted' finish are post war finishes. The now 'accepted' finish is acid pickeling which does not leave this same finish.

Posted on the thread are the 1953 price lists for St&L crosses. This surely dates that St&L was in the business of producing 3rd Reich awards after the war.

Such speculation can lead to misunderstandings and completely convoluted reasoning. I just believe that you cannot have it both ways with the finish on awards. If the non-acid pickeling is wartime, on a Knight's Cross and the applied milky frosting is post-war, on a Knight's Cross, would not the same be true for other St&L awards?

Sometimes, a bit of information, without the complete picture leads to invalid conclusions.

Of course, with proof that St&L was making 3rd Reich awards from 1953 forward, I believe the desireability of this maker's product is greatly diminished. Who is to say that 'textbook' badges and medals are made in 1933 to 1945, not in 1953, if made on the same equipment and by the same workers. The only way you will know is if it has been watched, every second, since 8 May 1945. Blink, and it could be switched!

This is thhe point I am trying to make on your cased KvK ohne swords.

You think you are confused; I think I need some Thorozine!

Bob Hritz

[Pieter Verbruggen]

John,

I have a Steinhauer KvK like yours. I very much like yours.

However, the confusion arises from the threads about St&L Knight's Crosses where there is the judgement that the milky white frosting and bright 'painted' finish are post war finishes. The now 'accepted' finish is acid pickeling which does not leave this same finish.

Posted on the thread are the 1953 price lists for St&L crosses. This surely dates that St&L was in the business of producing 3rd Reich awards after the war.

Such speculation can lead to misunderstandings and completely convoluted reasoning. I just believe that you cannot have it both ways with the finish on awards. If the non-acid pickeling is wartime, on a Knight's Cross and the applied milky frosting is post-war, on a Knight's Cross, would not the same be true for other St&L awards?

Sometimes, a bit of information, without the complete picture leads to invalid conclusions.

Of course, with proof that St&L was making 3rd Reich awards from 1953 forward, I believe the desireability of this maker's product is greatly dimished. Who is to say that 'textbook' badges and medals are made in 1933 to 1945, not in 1953, if made on the same equipment and by the same workers. The only way you will know is if it has been watched, every second, since 8 May 1945. Blink, and it could be switched!

This is thhe point I am trying to make on your cased KvK ohne swords.

You think you are confused; I think I need some Thorozine!

Bob Hritz

BOBBBB...IZZZZ YOURR COLLECTTTTION FORRRR ZZZAILLL ?????

Pieter. (under tranquilizers for the moment, please do not disturb)

[Bob Hritz]

Pieter,

You do not want a room full of my mistakes in with all your originals.

However, I could use a large tank of NO to make me feel better!!!!

Bob Hritz

[Dietrich Maerz]

John,

I have a Steinhauer KvK like yours. I very much like yours.

However, the confusion arises from the threads about St&L Knight's Crosses where there is the judgement that the milky white frosting and bright 'painted' finish are post war finishes. The now 'accepted' finish is acid pickeling which does not leave this same finish.

Posted on the thread are the 1953 price lists for St&L crosses. This surely dates that St&L was in the business of producing 3rd Reich awards after the war.

Such speculation can lead to misunderstandings and completely convoluted reasoning. I just believe that you cannot have it both ways with the finish on awards. If the non-acid pickeling is wartime, on a Knight's Cross and the applied milky frosting is post-war, on a Knight's Cross, would not the same be true for other St&L awards?

Sometimes, a bit of information, without the complete picture leads to invalid conclusions.

Of course, with proof that St&L was making 3rd Reich awards from 1953 forward, I believe the desireability of this maker's product is greatly diminished. Who is to say that 'textbook' badges and medals are made in 1933 to 1945, not in 1953, if made on the same equipment and by the same workers. The only way you will know is if it has been watched, every second, since 8 May 1945. Blink, and it could be switched!

This is thhe point I am trying to make on your cased KvK ohne swords.

You think you are confused; I think I need some Thorozine!

Bob Hritz

Bob!

I think you are confusing someting here. I certainly never said that 'painted' finish is post war and you can clearly read in my article that the flawed A-Type, which has the painted frosting is pre mid 44 and also has provenance. The same applies to the 935-4, which also have provenance and painted frosting.

There are no "bit's of information that lead to invalid conclusions". Al least not from my side.

So - painted frosting is for sure no sign of post war, whereas however post war S&L also have the painted frosting (but not all)

In addition, most (if not all) EK1 with frosting have the painted frosting! From the very beginning! This makes complete sense since the 'real' frosting (Weiss-Sieden) only works with silver and with no other material. (As pointed out in the article...). In this connection it also makes completely sense that a KVK with frosting can ONLY have the painted frosting (since not made of silver).

And also it is nowhere said that frosting must be the - as you call it -"accepted" frosting. It can be clearly seen that there were two ways of doing this (with silver) and this is not a question of acceptance - it's a historical fact.

To deduct what you wrote above is completely wrong, out of context and I wonder why Pieter didn't tell you earlier (since I discussed this issue with him and he's of the same opinion). I guess he just want to buy your collection ....

And yes, S&L did produce after the war! And they did not only produce RK's as the price list shows. But I venture to say that they did NOT mark their pieces with "4" when they did it!

I cannot judge the piece in question here, but the frosting is for sure NO sign of postwar!

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

Bob I must also jump in here and suggest that your reaction is a 'knee jerk' and absolutely unfounded....


Clearly S&L made awards post war but the 'price list' did not suggest anything associated with S&L and listed many awards probably made by different firms.


Research for the last 3 years is finally comming together to narrow the 'time line' to show without (much of a) doubt what is post war and isn't....


This isn't popular and especially so when trust and $$$ has been involved. However, on a positive note it continues to narrow the opportunity for dealers to sell these 'types' even at bargain prices and almost always 30% less than what an original pre '45 made cross would sell for.

I bought the magazine out of curiosity only. It has sort of brought everything 'together' by its content but more importantly the research, arguements and sharing of information these last years has brought us much closer to being able to identify a 'suspicious' cross....ie, plated frame, silvered frosting, rounded Swaz and numerals, flat strike, poor soldering, poorly voided ring, silver content stamps that don't make sense, fonts not seen before and on and on.....till we get to the 'dent row' which gives us a focus point of which we may now 'weigh' the entire cross and come to a logical conclusion regarding wartime or post!

This has been a long time comming.....and has met some resistance even 3 years ago but one can't ignore a logical time line and absolute, exacting die features. ABC or D or even 'repaired' which I lean toward, one can't ignore the facts recently brought to light......you can't have an EARLY cross that didn't exist when it's purported to be when the die clearly shows a later strike!

[Bob Hritz]

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 width=175></TD><TD class=alt2><HR color=#cfb992 SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Brian S
... but so much doubt now hung unfairly over the 'B' Types. I think great intentions, but the results have resulted in irresponsible comments in other threads and here. (Not a dig at you Dietrich.)
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>





Dave,

I don't know when the "silver' frosting was introduced, but surely not during the war. And also, I was so far under the impression that the heavily flawed unmagnetic, unmarked was dubbed by you as a 'british' made examples...
So do we revise this now and say the heavily flawed unmarked unmagnetic are pre-57?
There are flawed 57's. I will compare the flwa pattern on the arms with the B-Type. This will tell a lot ...


Dietrich
<!-- / message --><!-- sig --></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>I quote from the 2 Dies for St&L Knight's Cross: