1939 Prinzengrosse cased Godet EK1...

[Biro]

Please feel free to discuss.... although this is optional...

Pay particular attention to the expert assessment contained in the phrase "Frankly I have never even seen a 1939 Prinzengrosse.." and "the paint would rate at about 99%"....

Oh dear....

http://www.derrittmeister.com/09451.htm


09-451 1939 IRON CROSS 1<SUP>st</SUP> CLASS PRINZENGROßE. As you are aware, we do not offer much material from the Third Reich. One of the few Third Reich items we will offer is an Iron Cross. More often than not this is in the area of a 1939 Spange to the 1914 Iron Cross 1<SUP>st</SUP> or 2<SUP>nd</SUP> Class. Today we are offering something quite rare. This is a 1939 Iron Cross 1<SUP>st</SUP> Class in the prinzengroße size. Frankly, I had never even seen a 1939 Prinzengroße Iron Cross. I was especially taken by this example.

It is non vaulted and flat in design. The detail to the obverse is excellent, with superb beading and framework. The paint would rate at about 99%, with just one small speck of paint missing. On the reverse, the Iron Cross is hallmarked for Godet - Berlin and .800 silver. The cross measures 1 1/32" x 1 1/32," and is of the smaller prinzengroße design (what I call sub-prinzengroße). While it comes in a small case, it is not original to the Iron Cross. In my opinion, it was added by a collector at one time or another. If you are a serious Iron Cross collector, this is a MUST for your collection.

[George Stimson]

The only Prinzengrosse 1939 EK 1s I have ever seen reference to are in Bowen's book. Neither of them have pins like this one.

[Tiger 1]

Marshall,

Are we long lost twins seperated at birth?

I just had an exchange of ideas several days ago with other forum members about the improbability of a '39 being in the prinzen size.

Hitler was adamant about shedding the vestiges of the Imperial era in his NS state to the point that he disallowed the production of vaulted EKIs. A very specific detail oriented ban. The same type of mind set also did not allow the makers of the 1914 EK to use frames struck in the Imperial size. With that perspective I've come full circle in my thinking about the feasability of genuine '39 prinzen EKs. In almost forty years of collecting these crosses I haven't seen any '39 prinzen EKs. Anyway, ones that would have the quality necessary to be considered genuine. I have looked for examples being worn in pictures. Nada. We know how difficult it is to find pictures of early vaulted and cloth examples shown being worn. Try finding a picture of a '39 prinzen.

So where does that leave us? To second George's statement the only reference that shows a '39 prinzen is Vern Bowen's book. Is the example shown a prototype that was made as a sample for aaplication to manufacture them? ? Was it an in-house projeat that ultimately went no where? Who knows at this point.

The EK shown above doesn't have the core finish we would expect nor does the later laydown hinge inspire confidence of it's originality. IMO anyway. I am not stuck in the mud on this issue and would truly like to see a genuine '39 prinzen EK if they exist.

This should be an interesting topic

Tony.

[Tiger 1]

On second look, is it me or does the core look stepped? Look at top of the12 o'clock arm and the top of the 3 o'clock arm.

Tony

[Marc Garlasco]

Indeed - stepped core. But what is before the Godet? There is something that looks like a 1???
Marc

[Biro]

Marshall.....Are we long lost twins seperated at birth? ...Tony.

Maybe......can twins be born 15 years apart?

The pin set-up on the back of the first of the two reverse illustrations in Bowens book has always piqued my interest, though I fear if a 'good one' were to show up somewhere, one day, ..... how would we recognise it?


Marshall

[Tiger 1]

Good eye Marc!

There also seems to be something stamped after the 'N' in Sohn.

Tony

[Biro]

Indeed - stepped core. But what is before the Godet? There is something that looks like a 1???
Marc

Marc

That'll be a 'J' .....

Marshall

[Tiger 1]

Maybe......can twins be born 15 years apart?

Maybe. You never really know about anything these days.

Tony

[Eric Stahlhut]

I had a chance to handle one of these a few years back. It definitely was NOT made of silver. The Canadian dealer claimed to have purchased it from a museum in Hungary.


Despite my advice, another collector just had to have it. He paid a lot of money for it, and to this day regrets his decision.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Good eye Marc!

There also seems to be something stamped after the 'N' in Sohn.

Tony

I venture to say that that is a "KG" which is the German abreviation for "Kommanditgesellschaft". A form of company similiar to GmbH or Inc.

Dietrich

[Tiger 1]

The maker's markings on the back look to be applied in several steps . The J. Godet & Son ?? and the Berlin 800 are stamped at two distinctly different depths.

Can anyone post another example of this type of Godet trademark with the 'KG' that Dietrich mentions?

Tony

[George Stimson]

For those EK collectors not fortunate enough to own a copy of Bowen.

[George Stimson]

Reverse pics.

[vonStubben]

Interesting thread. I, too, have always wondered about the existance (or not) of 1939 prinzengrosse EK-1's. I have never seen a prinzen size 39 EK-1, but I have owned absolutely original prinzengrosse EK-2's. One was given to me by my family Doctor while growing up, who was the youngest member of the 2nd Ranger's in WWII, and the other was picked up at an antique show in Maine about 10 years ago. Both were finally sold (reluctantly) to a local collector in my area (now deceased), who had a huge collection of iron crosses.

But, regarding this example, one would think that the hinge and pin would be of better, and more typical, manufacture for an EK-1, especially if made by Godet. However, the final decision would have to be made in the handling and inspection of it, plus that veteran "gut feeling".

Marshall,

Are we long lost twins seperated at birth?

I just had an exchange of ideas several days ago with other forum members about the improbability of a '39 being in the prinzen size.

Hitler was adamant about shedding the vestiges of the Imperial era in his NS state to the point that he disallowed the production of vaulted EKIs. A very specific detail oriented ban. The same type of mind set also did not allow the makers of the 1914 EK to use frames struck in the Imperial size. With that perspective I've come full circle in my thinking about the feasability of genuine '39 prinzen EKs. In almost forty years of collecting these crosses I haven't seen any '39 prinzen EKs. Anyway, ones that would have the quality necessary to be considered genuine. I have looked for examples being worn in pictures. Nada. We know how difficult it is to find pictures of early vaulted and cloth examples shown being worn. Try finding a picture of a '39 prinzen.

So where does that leave us? To second George's statement the only reference that shows a '39 prinzen is Vern Bowen's book. Is the example shown a prototype that was made as a sample for aaplication to manufacture them? ? Was it an in-house projeat that ultimately went no where? Who knows at this point.

The EK shown above doesn't have the core finish we would expect nor does the later laydown hinge inspire confidence of it's originality. IMO anyway. I am not stuck in the mud on this issue and would truly like to see a genuine '39 prinzen EK if they exist.

This should be an interesting topic

Tony.