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**martin3** · 01-16-2008, 02:42 PM

I've seen an felt this kind of envelopes, and to be honest: I didn't like them.
Paper feels too smooth, the lettering looks printed.
But let's wait for the experts...

The Spangen on the other hand: GREAT!

Best regards,
Martin

**MattS** · 01-16-2008, 03:00 PM

Thanks Martin!

I don't know how two original mint spanges brought home from Italy in 1945 would have ended up with fake packets, so I am inclined to believe in them. Of course, I have never seen another one so what do I know!

**Thomas H** · 01-16-2008, 04:04 PM

Hi Matt,

I was wrong about the lettering being known for fake packet

. I don't know why I mixed the lettering up!

Packets to the EKII spange aren't seen every day, and like most packets to other awards, there are different kinds of packets for the spange.

I don't think I have every seen this lettering before on a EKII spange packet, but the lettering is know and can be found on other packets like for example the common kvk packets.

The makers mark having the same lettering is also new for me. I can't recall that I have seen this makers mark (MM) lettering on other packets.

Ludwig Bertsch, Karlsruhe, MM #114 is on the list of makers, the lettering is known, so although there are some not so common things (like I wrote above) I would say that the packets are ok.

Maybe I should have them in hand to be sure.

Let wait and see what Marcus things about them, maybe he has one, or has seen them before.

Best regards,

Thomas

ps. I believe "you". But there are a lot of people who bought fake pieces because of the great stories that came with it. I'm only looking for facts on the packets and hope that the knowledge that I have helps me and others to protect us all from fakes. I can't see anything on the story.

**MattS** · 01-16-2008, 05:02 PM

Thanks again!

It's great to have access to knowledgeable people like you on this forum. I didn't know anything about packets until today. I'm glad everything on these spanges apparently checks out OK before I buy them.

**Thomas H** · 01-16-2008, 06:01 PM

Hi Matt,

I'm glad if I can help another forum member, but remember that I'm just one person giving his opinion. Martin didn't like it, that another opinion of someone that is trying to help a member.

I would also like to know the opinion of the forum moderators. just wait another day before purchasing the spanges and packets.

Best, Thomas

**MattS** · 01-16-2008, 07:40 PM

Here's the third packet in the grouping, named to J.E.Hammer & Son, listed as LDO code 55 on this site:
http://www.janssen-militaria.com/ldo.html

Attached Files

packet front trimmed.jpg (49.5 KB, 151 views)

**MattS** · 01-16-2008, 07:41 PM

mm

Attached Files

packet_back trimmed.jpg (45.1 KB, 149 views)

**martin3** · 01-17-2008, 03:25 AM

That is one I would absolutely GO FOR!!!!!!

Should the other two be condsidered good...
Damn...
Then I have passed on a good one in the past.

But on the other hand, I think I had a packet like the first two in my hand and my gut-feeling was not good on that moment.
Always better to leave it then, isn't it?

**MH184** · 01-17-2008, 04:14 AM

Okay, I'll edit these:

Right, the packets look like those that are called the Flower War medal packets, they have been cut down in size i.e the flap of the packet and some small lenght in height appears to be devoid for a reason ?

The maker mark look to be good of course as is the packet. The designation however I do have my reservations about and therefore a scan would be useful.

As this is a an edit I've read the reply below and in answer to that, well as a collector I personally evaluate the item not the story - you're not wrong and you're not right to consider the 'history' of such or in diction of a sorts 'story' as collectors say.

The only premise is what you know or believe.

I'd love to have one in hand and take a real close look at the designation.

Very interesting packets, I'd like to see in the maker amrk ink matched the designation.

**MattS** · 01-17-2008, 04:15 AM

I appreciate everyone's comments on the packets. Here's my opinion (for what it is worth). Fact 1, These items came directly from a WW2 US veteran's estate after his widow passed away and have been in the same box since 1945 along with numerous other items. Fact 2, They were bought by a friend of mine who has no collecting interest in German items at all, he just thought that they were "neat" and he got them cheap. Fact 3, They are being shown here for the first time and have never been owned by a collector (unless you count the late CPL George Davis who brought them home). When I first saw the grouping, my friend had the packets laid aside in a stack and didn't have them with the medals because he had no idea what they said or what they went with. He knew I had a little experience with German items, so I helped him put the KVKs together, the spanges together, the EK2s together, etc. Then I realized the packets had maker's marks on them, so we used a little internet research to match makers and LDO codes. When he gave me the two spanges, he included the two envelopes 'that matched' because he didn't know otherwise. I don't know how a fake packet could have entered this grouping and get mixed in with all original crosses and spanges when these items have a very strong provenance straight back to Italy in 1945. I had no idea 1939 spanges were even issued in packets (I don't collect these either), but every other medal and cross from this group I have posted in the other forums have checked out 100%. We are certainly not out to deceive anyone, and frankly I don't know enough to do it convincingly. I tend to think that the chances of having 99% good items and then having two fake packets somehow entering this box while it sat in a closet for 60 years is pretty remote. Is it just that these are so rare that no one has been able to verify their authenticity before? Anyway, that's just my 2 cents worth.

**MattS** · 01-17-2008, 04:22 AM

Here's another cross from the same group, marked 56 on the ring, packet matched to Robert Hauschild, Pforzheim. I will post a photo of the rear when I can.

Attached Files

IMG_3013_1.jpg (50.7 KB, 144 views)

**MH184** · 01-17-2008, 04:30 AM

The KVK packet is genuine.

The 'packets' are genuine, the designation is the only contention on the spange packets - i.e they are Flower War packets by the looks, the sheen etc is fine on them, the maker mark is fine and unlike the fake (this maker is used alot by fakers, for instance the scrawl fakes use this maker)

**leigh** · 01-17-2008, 04:53 AM

Any idea when the "with cross" was written on the front .
Looks like biro

**MattS** · 01-17-2008, 07:18 AM

"Any idea when the "with cross" was written on the front ."

No, I didn't do it and my buddy didn't do it. It was probably done in 1945 by a German clerk or something

I can see it's not in ball-point pen though. Here's the best close-ups I can get of the markings on the right packet.

Attached Files

IMG_3034_1.jpg (55.8 KB, 140 views)

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