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    Case to the Oakleaves with Swords

    Hello,

    I would like to present in this article the case to the Oakleaves with Swords. To me three Swords-Groups are known, with those with certainty can be said, Swords and case have not been replaced or exchanged by traders or collectors.

    The three recipients are:
    • Generaloberst Hans-Georg Reinhardt, awarded on May 26, 1944,
    • SS-Standartenführer Otto Baum, awarded on September 2, 1944,
    • General …, awarded on August 1944 (Name known; decoration in my collection).

    All Oakleaves with Swords pieces from these recipients are visible worn and made from Godet marked “900” and “21”. And all these Swords come inside the same case: black leather skin with a silver-grey line around the upper outer edge of the lid, silk inside lining and black flocking base like on the photos below. The case size is: 103 mm long, 80 mm wide and 26 mm high with the usual tolerances.

    Therefore, I cannot join the opinion of Dietrich Maerz in the chapter of the Sword Cases in his book The Knights Cross of the Iron Cross after which only the early L/50 Swords were presented (or bought on the private retail market) in the black leather skin case (pages 286 to 287). And I can also not join the opinion that later on the Swords are only presented in the Oakleave style cases (pages 288 to 291).

    The on pages 286/287 illustrated black leather skin case is undoubtedly a case for the Swords. But the case illustrated there does not belong originally, however, to the L/50 Swords inside this case. This black leather skin case was sold without a decoration before longer time by Kai Winkler. You can see this case still on his homepage in the archives under the article number 8065 (here wrongly described as a case for the Diamonds). Since some month the same black leather skin case is now offered with L/50 Swords by Helmut Weitze for sale (article number 91089). For this reason no conclusions can seriously be done by this Swords set, because case and Swords have not belonged together originally.

    It should be correct that some Swords were presented (or sold) in the Oakleaves style case. But this was the exception and not the rule. The Oakleaves with Swords were one of the highest German military bravery decorations and accordingly it was also put on the quality of the award case special value. Oberleutnant Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert, for example, awarded on February 1, 1945 his Swords in a case for the Diamonds, perhaps because no Swords case was available at the time of delivery to the Präsidialkanzlei.

    On the other side I know traders and collectors who put Swords in changed original Oakleaves cases for better sale, for safe keeping or for exhibition the rare decoration.

    I would be glad if other collectors could give their knowledge about the case to the Oakleaves with Swords in this Forum.

    Andy

    P.S. Marcus Hatton is so friendly to post as soon as possible for me both photos here.

    #2
    1
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      #3
      2
      Attached Files

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        #4
        POR for L/50 cased Oakleaves and Swords.

        Interesting thread..
        Incidentally the cased set of L/50 Oakleaves and Swords that Helmut Weitze has for sale on this website are priced at POR.

        For those interested this means 45,000 Euros.

        Jeff

        Comment


          #5
          Hello Jeff,

          I’m glad that you are the lucky owner of the “21” Godet Swords in the genuine leather skin case of Otto Baum.

          Although the Swords are lightly damaged at the ribbon loop, it is still an outstanding award of a very famous soldier.

          Andy

          Comment


            #6
            Swords

            Hi Andy,

            I only had one set in my collection, it was from Wurmheller. The swords were awarded to him after his death and were send to his family and are in a Oakleaves case.



            Jeroen
            Attached Files

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              #7
              Incorrect

              Originally posted by Andy K. View Post
              Hello,

              I would like to present in this article the case to the Oakleaves with Swords. To me three Swords-Groups are known, with those with certainty can be said, Swords and case have not been replaced or exchanged by traders or collectors.

              The three recipients are:
              • Generaloberst Hans-Georg Reinhardt, awarded on May 26, 1944,
              • SS-Standartenführer Otto Baum, awarded on September 2, 1944,
              • General …, awarded on August 1944 (Name known; decoration in my collection).

              All Oakleaves with Swords pieces from these recipients are visible worn and made from Godet marked “900” and “21”. And all these Swords come inside the same case: black leather skin with a silver-grey line around the upper outer edge of the lid, silk inside lining and black flocking base like on the photos below. The case size is: 103 mm long, 80 mm wide and 26 mm high with the usual tolerances.

              Therefore, I cannot join the opinion of Dietrich Maerz in the chapter of the Sword Cases in his book The Knights Cross of the Iron Cross after which only the early L/50 Swords were presented (or bought on the private retail market) in the black leather skin case (pages 286 to 287). And I can also not join the opinion that later on the Swords are only presented in the Oakleave style cases (pages 288 to 291).

              The on pages 286/287 illustrated black leather skin case is undoubtedly a case for the Swords. But the case illustrated there does not belong originally, however, to the L/50 Swords inside this case. This black leather skin case was sold without a decoration before longer time by Kai Winkler. You can see this case still on his homepage in the archives under the article number 8065 (here wrongly described as a case for the Diamonds). Since some month the same black leather skin case is now offered with L/50 Swords by Helmut Weitze for sale (article number 91089). For this reason no conclusions can seriously be done by this Swords set, because case and Swords have not belonged together originally.

              It should be correct that some Swords were presented (or sold) in the Oakleaves style case. But this was the exception and not the rule. The Oakleaves with Swords were one of the highest German military bravery decorations and accordingly it was also put on the quality of the award case special value. Oberleutnant Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert, for example, awarded on February 1, 1945 his Swords in a case for the Diamonds, perhaps because no Swords case was available at the time of delivery to the Präsidialkanzlei.

              On the other side I know traders and collectors who put Swords in changed original Oakleaves cases for better sale, for safe keeping or for exhibition the rare decoration.

              I would be glad if other collectors could give their knowledge about the case to the Oakleaves with Swords in this Forum.

              Andy

              P.S. Marcus Hatton is so friendly to post as soon as possible for me both photos here.



              Andy,

              You are incorrect. The case and L/50 'swords' pictured in Maerz' book on page 286/287 currently for sale by Helmut Weitze was purchased from a well respected and completely trust-worthy US dealer who I believe (not 100% certain) purchased it from a US WWII veteran.

              MIKE

              Comment


                #8
                Hello MIKE,

                Unfortunately, there I must contradict you.

                PLEASE, take the time and look at the case on the homepage of Winkler and Weitze. I have given both article numbers. You will clearly see it is the same case, because the case has the handwritten number “22” on the white hinge cover inside the case and on the bottom side in white letters the description “Ott. HONW”. It does do me sorry, but on account of these facts I cannot believe the story about the US dealer and the WWII veteran.

                Every interested of this forum can gladly satisfy himself of it.

                At the moment where a decoration with case etc is in the trade, it cannot be said any more with certainly, whether both pieces have been also awarded really so together. And how many collectors, for example, purchased an empty case for their single Knight’s Cross afterwards?

                Andy

                Comment


                  #9
                  Andy,

                  do you really mean that all sword sets, L/50 and 21, have been given out in the case I show on page 286 - 287?

                  If that should hold true, Erich Hartmann was personally cheated by Adolf Hitler into the wrong sword case ...

                  Dietrich
                  B&D PUBLISHING
                  Premium Books from Collectors for Collectors

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post
                    Andy,

                    do you really mean that all sword sets, L/50 and 21, have been given out in the case I show on page 286 - 287?

                    If that should hold true, Erich Hartmann was personally cheated by Adolf Hitler into the wrong sword case ...

                    Dietrich
                    Hello Dietrich:

                    No recipients were personally “cheated” by Adolf Hitler because they have not received their decoration in the usual case.
                    Orders, medals and their cases were procured and delivered to the place which made the presentation, in exclusive responsibility of the Presidential Chancellery (Präsidialkanzlei), and not in the personal responsibility of Adolf Hitler.

                    You set up in your book in the chapter “The Sword Cases” extensive theories. And found your theory among other things with photos of a set of Swords in a leather skin case these original have not belonged together.

                    After my experience were awarded, up to a few exceptions, all Godet Swords in the black leather skin case with a silver-grey line around the upper outer edge of the lid. At least all “21” marked Swords.

                    All known to me and as can be proved not to changed Swords/case sets (Dieckmann, L/50 Swords on 10.10.1943 / Reinhardt ,21 Swords on 26.05.1944 / Wittmann, 21 Swords on 22.06.1944 / Schörner, 21 Swords on 28.08.1944 / Baum, 21 Swords on 02.09.1944) were awarded in the described leather skin case above.

                    This speaks for the fact that the leather skin case was the rule. That is was I mean.

                    Andy

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Andy,

                      I certainly will not start a debate with you about this. All I can say is that my research does not confirm what you say. Now I admit that my observations are also only based on a few examples - but I report observations and don't speak of facts.

                      I would not say - as you do - that based on a few examples (in your case 5 recipients) to deduct a 'fact" that "the leather skin case was the rule." These 5 gentlemen represent a little over 3 %!

                      And it can't be a fact when Hartmann got a different one (and it is his original one and I know very well that they came from the PKZ and that Hitler did not run out on his own with Eva on a shopping trip to buy a set ... ) and the later sets (900 21) from Klessheim also have the (later) style I describe.

                      In regards to the case you mentioned and the swords which you say do not belong together with that particular case: that might very well be and it would not be the first time that dealers have put things together! Sometimes even collectors do that. It depends how they do it!

                      Since the point here is: Does a genuine sword set (with L/50 marking) belong into this genuine case type? And that is certainly the case - as you are arguing very adamant also - however exclusively. So where's the harm?

                      I think you would have a case (no pun intended...) if I would have shown pictures of a (lets say) red and blue striped case in oval shape with a set of swords in it and declared that as a genuine set. You should see the pictures that are NOT in the book ...

                      I think we have to agree to disagree here. I do not have the feeling that I am leading collctors down the path of buying wrong cases if they are buying a cased sword set which does not rest in the case you think it should. Absolutely not!

                      Dietrich
                      B&D PUBLISHING
                      Premium Books from Collectors for Collectors

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Hello Dietrich:

                        Can it be that you feel stepped on your tie, because I have shaken with my thread about the Sword case at one of your “new” theories in the book The Knights Cross? A respectable answer was this in my eyes anyhow not.

                        The swords are present on their very small award numbers and its high value only in relatively few collections. Most original Swords which I had seen in the last 30 years from recipients, collectors or in the trade, the award case was missing into over two thirds of the cases.

                        Five Swords are in the leather skin case. One Sword recipient got his Swords in February 1945 in a leather skin case for the Diamonds. And I found also the following situation: A Diamonds recipient kept his Swords in the case for the Diamonds and his Oakleaves in the leather skin case for the Swords, because his Diamonds were lost after the war. Of course the recipient had not got his awards in these cases, but the German soldiers attached usually no great importance to their award cases.

                        Those are the results of my “research” of many years.

                        Under others I do not hold your conclusions in the chapter about the Swords Cases than correct. I delivered the reason above. And that should also know the interested collector.

                        It would be nice, if other advanced collectors write about their knowledge.

                        Andy

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post
                          Andy,

                          I certainly will not start a debate with you about this. All I can say is that my research does not confirm what you say. Now I admit that my observations are also only based on a few examples - but I report observations and don't speak of facts.

                          I would not say - as you do - that based on a few examples (in your case 5 recipients) to deduct a 'fact" that "the leather skin case was the rule." These 5 gentlemen represent a little over 3 %!

                          And it can't be a fact when Hartmann got a different one (and it is his original one and I know very well that they came from the PKZ and that Hitler did not run out on his own with Eva on a shopping trip to buy a set ... ) and the later sets (900 21) from Klessheim also have the (later) style I describe.

                          In regards to the case you mentioned and the swords which you say do not belong together with that particular case: that might very well be and it would not be the first time that dealers have put things together! Sometimes even collectors do that. It depends how they do it!

                          Since the point here is: Does a genuine sword set (with L/50 marking) belong into this genuine case type? And that is certainly the case - as you are arguing very adamant also - however exclusively. So where's the harm?

                          I think you would have a case (no pun intended...) if I would have shown pictures of a (lets say) red and blue striped case in oval shape with a set of swords in it and declared that as a genuine set. You should see the pictures that are NOT in the book ...

                          I think we have to agree to disagree here. I do not have the feeling that I am leading collctors down the path of buying wrong cases if they are buying a cased sword set which does not rest in the case you think it should. Absolutely not!

                          Dietrich

                          The world was once thought to be flat

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