German Cross (DK) Halbetui Case

[CSForrester]

Hello David,

this is certainly a postwar case, produced for Steinhauer & Lueck 1957-German Crosses. I have seen 3 or 4 early German Crosses in this case.

Regards
CSForrester

[DavidM]

Hello David,

this is certainly a postwar case, produced for Steinhauer & Lueck 1957-German Crosses. I have seen 3 or 4 early German Crosses in this case.

Regards
CSForrester

Hello

Thanks for that. I'm not so sure about this one being post war, and would disgaree with you here - not because I want it to be a wartime case, (which of course would be nice), but because I feel that there are a lot of pointers to it being a wartime and not a post war manufactured item.

That halbetui cases for the DKs existed during WW2 doesn't appear to be in doubt. What is debated, and hence why I posted this case, is which type / style etc of halbetui is wartime and which isn't. The ones I've seen classed as post war made pieces didn't have, among other things, the 'KB' number and marking on the underside of the interior base and didn't appear to use the 'animal glue'. That aside, and this is hard to explain but I'm sure others will know what I mean, it feels and smells right.

It's a rare day that I disgaree with you, but on this I do.

Kind regards
David

[ejwahl1]

David,

I have a case that is "identical" to the one you have which is also marked with what appears to be 637.KB. It came to me holding a '57 DKiG. Not sure whether this proves anything or not, but thought you'd be interested in knowing.

Regards,

Ed

[MH184]

Ed is the '57 DK a S&L by chance ?

[ejwahl1]

Ed is the '57 DK a S&L by chance ?

Marcus,

Correct!

Regards,

Ed

[MH184]

Uuumm, this is very interesting, thank you for that Ed; I'll get back to this thread as I have some thoughts and idea's.

I think there is more than meets the eye to these sorts of cases and there is an S&L connection to lesser or greater extent, but not directly to the '57 examples per se.

Period or not, I'm still 'iffy' about with no premise for determination as such.

[DavidM]

David,

I have a case that is "identical" to the one you have which is also marked with what appears to be 637.KB. It came to me holding a '57 DKiG. Not sure whether this proves anything or not, but thought you'd be interested in knowing.

Regards,

Ed

Hello

Mine also came with a very early 57 DKiG.

Ed is the '57 DK a S&L by chance ?

And mine was also a very early 57 S&L DKiG, made using the 'wartime' parts. Of course, there is then the question that is hotly debated as to whether S&L actually made the DKs during the war, or if they produced after 1945.

Regards
David

[DavidM]

Hello

Now, how about a couple of theories on these halbetui DK cases. I've no evidence to support what I am postulating here, it's just a couple of theories of mine based around this, and some other discussions. This also involves the debate around whether S&L did, or did not make DKs during the war, and also the premise that 'KB' were a manufacturer of cases etc in their own right.

1. S&L did manufacture DKs at some point during the war. I would suggest that this occured very late in the war, during the chaos and confusion as the Third Reich crumbled, possibly even manufacturing them for another authorised DK supplier, who had quotas to fullfill but had been bomb damaged, and therefore sub-contracted the work out. This would explain why the S&L wartime DKs are, comparative to other makers examples, not that often seen, and provides the left over wartime parts used on their very early 57 DKs.
On the above basis, S&L, during the war, buy in a stock of the halbetui type cases, (or are provided with these from the contracting company), in which to place the DKs. After the war, in common with a few other manufacturers, they still hold wartime stock and components. Aside from probably continuing to make a few of the swastika'd DKs, (as they did with the RKs), after the war, when the 57 law was enacted any remaining wartime components, including cases, were used up, hence why the early, wartime parts, S&L DKs are sometimes found in these cases. Once the wartime parts etc were used up, the 57 DKs were revised, and, for example, the more common '57 thin pin' and hinge styles were employed in the manufacture, along with the plastic cases.

2. S&L did not manufacture DKs during the war. After 1945, with the increasing demand from the collectors market, and requests from veterans for replacement swastika'd DKs - the originals having been lost, damaged or 'souvenired' by Allied troops - S&L began making DKs in the same manner and style that would have been employed during the war. To complete the illusion, they used up, where possible and available, wartime components for any accompanying cases, and where these were not available they had the original manufacturer, (KB ?), produce components using the original wartime tooling - hence why, for example, the font, size etc of the 'KB' stamp is identical to those on known wartime boxes. As S&L did with their post war made RKs, seemingly insignificant detail allowed these to be identified as post war. So, for example, the incuse '4' mark on S&L RKs is now believed to only appear on post 1945 made S&L RKs, and in the same way, post war made halbetui DK cases have the small pin helping to secure the base and no coloured band. So although wartime parts, or original wartime tooling may have been employed, the assembly was post war.
For whatever reason, S&L appear to have ceased making the swastika'd DKs quite early, and then used up the remaining components on the 57 versions before moving onto the more common '57 thin pin' and hinge styles and the plastic cases.

As I say, pure theory and speculation on my part. Another question then is, if wartime components were employed in making these cases, but were assembled post war, how does that then classifiy them? The sum parts of the case were made during the period, only the final construction occured after 1945.

Regards
David

[Darrell]

David,

I would imagine anyone that has the S&L Swastika version of the DK's would die to have your first theory proven to be correct

[MH184]

Exactly David, you're on the same wavelength as me - which is why I haven't repsonded on the GCA to this, as the guy that responded doesen't entertain the S&L DK (and to be hoenst I've not puchased one by this maker either as I deem them too dodgy to splash out on) - so first I'd like to have something more so to propose and evolve that over there too.

I have read or I think I have read thus I'm under the impression there is some paper work existing in Germany relating to S&L and the DK. I'm thinking out aloud here, so don't hold me to this - I can but ask the poster of this info to elaborate.

Pilchy has an S&L salesmans box that has room for one of these awards in it !

Now it's these dubious S&L crosses that I was thinking along the lines of and when they were produced what they would have come in ! Wartime, immediate post war or more recent times ???

Like I say I have few lines of enquiry in mind, it's no doubt been researched before, but hey what the hell.

We'll put pur heads together David and see what we find out eh !

[DavidM]

Hello

I'm resurrecting this thread as I now have another of these halbuti style DK cases. Again, this case has come with an early S&L new form (57) DKiG, ( see this thread http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...40#post2930140 ).

The following photos are of this latest case. Following on from the original discusion below, does anyone as yet have any evidence, theories or further ideas about these?

First photo is of the top of the case.

Regards
David

[DavidM]

Exterior underside of case

[DavidM]

Interior of base, section that DK sits on removed.

[DavidM]

Underside of section of interior that the DK sits on

[DavidM]

Close in shot of one of the 637.KB marks