Carl Forster & Graf EK2 packet study

[skip]

Marcus,

As you well know, when I saw the stacks of these, in 50s, with banderrolles, non of them had the LDO designation on the back. I reckon I saw about 500 of these at one go.

Skip

[MH184]

Skip, the one I got from you hasn't got the Ldo warranty on it.


There are the two types, those with and those without, do you recall seeing them with the Ldo warranty at all ?

[Allan P.]

That's what confuses me Marcus.

There have been loads of the CFG packets on the market recently, hence the 'suspicion' about them.

However, how many have we seen with the LDO warrenty?

Allan

[skip]

Marcus,

I have never seen any with LDO designation and I looked at all the bundles the guy had. The top ones were faded blue and the ones underneath all dark blue. One of the things that convinced me they were legit.

Skip

[MH184]

I know this thought is provincial and unfounded and unlike any other packets we see as such, but.......



What about if CFG ordered some packets, a load for issue and a load for the retail market, I've some info as you know relating to the Ldo and it's issue of packets & boxes, but this would still contradict the Ldo's, 'carry on and use what you have' policy at that date of course. My interpretation of it in anycase.

After all we have Ldo packets with maker marks on, why not the adverse ? The thing is no one had researched these things before, so I'm starting from ground zero.


All pie in the sky theory and idea's though...if not thinking out aloud, but you know what Allan....if a badge looks and seems correct and can be compared to another it's a revelation......marvelous stuff (Unknown makers and all). A packet, well thats a different story and everyone thinks it's fake etc etc etc etc.

I don't know mate on this one, the packet is good as far as I can tell. Maker and Ldo mark with the contentions fold, who knows ? As Rene said earlier, I could go to the ends of the earth and produce all sorts of info....provenance hopefully, to what ends though ?

Some would believe some wouldn't and the only people to gain would be the dealers.

[Thomas H]

Hi Marcus,

Very interesting thread . I don't have a Carl Forster & Graf packet and don't know if I want one, but it's interesting to brainstorm about it.

I have seen a CFG packet on this forum that wasn't in mint condition, I can't find the thread and don't remember who the owner is. Could be interesting to compare the two packets.

Hi Allan,

Today I found a CFG packet with LDO warranty on eBay, maybe the first in many that will be found on eBay. Seller says that he has more than one

Greetings, Thomas

[MH184]

Oh yes I recall, that was Stefan (Aktinium)

[hagwalther]

An overlay, I think this dispells at least the notion it's a modern computor generated warranty, at this stage perhaps. This is a heavy inked cellophane packet and not the best example perhaps to use, the others were to feint really to see.

The packet isn't dead flat under the scanner and the packet kept moving, but aleast you can see the proportions of the letters and size. When held on the packet by hand, it's a perfect match.

Hi Marcus,

I think that both items being the EKII packet and cellopane may well be questionable in regard to the LDO printing. I have an LDO packet with the what looks like the same lettering but the the top line and the two bottom lines do not spread out into the same diameter of the other lines.

The centering of the LDO printing on the EKII packets was (I believe) first noted by Peter Wiking as being a computer type layout and one that I do agree with.

I will post a piccy in about 12 hours time of the reverse of my LDO packet and you will see the difference. Of course, my packet could be questioned but I am pretty confident that it is the real thing.

I think the only way for these packets to be confirmed as authentic are not is for them to undergo similar testing as per the West Wall packets a month or so ago.



Regards ...

[MH184]

Do you mean the paper Ldo packets ? They are different, as is the small Ldo paper packet compared to the larger generic common Ldo paper packet.

I'm doubtful if not sure in my own mind of Peters suggestion as this being a computer generated text, it may be similar, but he the fact remains though that indeed the cellophane packets are genuine, as they were tested along with the cello CCC packet which is fake. The ink and cello are not WW2 vintage at all. Where as the cello packets I have and those the same are purported with premise of 'lab' results as being indicated as this period vintage. The fake cello packets have the Ldo warranty like on the paper packets.

This is why I'm all excited about the potential prospects for the this CFG packet, and the consequently I think so far we can dispell the notion of any computer relation and modern spacing in the warranty.

Thats why when overlaying the two, I was all excited.......it's different this packet, there's alot that dosen't add up.......but it's only because we don't know enough about the makers etc etc that we can't qualifiy it in reality.

I'm afraid I'm of the mind set, never mind about availability, condition etc Lets look at what we have in hand with what we know and it's from here lets take it further. I have the feeling this packet will turn out to be genuine on all counts...in packet terms. I have to base this though, as an opinon is as good as a theory and not good enough. I alone won't be able to convince peers in this hobby.

Why no EK collectors have taken up this quest, in finding out about the unknown maker is beyond me ? This is another avenue of venture that must be explored too.

If anyone owns one of these packets, and is interested in conducting their own trials on packet that would be helpful......thus we can compare results and findings on the ink and paper.

Kr

Marcus

[hagwalther]

Hi Marcus,

Good points, but at the end of the day we need to age test the materials used to confirm authenticity or not.

Below is the rear of my LDO packet - Note the first and last two lines.

Regards...

[Thomas H]

Hi All,

I have gotten in touch with someone who sells these CFG packets with Ldo and asked him where they came from.

This is what he told me:

the CFG packets emerged somewhere in or around Stuttgart. This seller had the opportunity to look at all the CFG packets. He sorted out all that had a Ldo and bought them (ca. 400). Some big dealers already bought 200 of him, I do not know if this happened recently or some time ago, maybe time will tell.

It could be that he was the first to see them and that Skip saw them after the seller bought all packets with Ldo.

Greetings, Thomas

[hagwalther]

Taken from Herr Niemanns site this morning ...

[MH184]

Thats the the Ldo warrenty on the generic medium size packet sure. So part of the contention has to do with the spacing right.

Here's a another Ldo packet, this came with a mint Baltic Cross in, you may remember this came along with other genuine awards in their packets all Deumer made and packets marked, even a cased KVK, form a Polish RAF vets widow living in the UK.

This is a correct size packet, not often encountered but never the less out there, I've another example too. They were even producing these with the earlier Ldo desigantion on that I'd estimate between 1941 to sometime in 1943, then this style with the latin/fraktur lettering of the Ldo logo in the rectangle which would subsequently be '43 onwards. This ties in with the use of Ldo cellophane and wax packets and the more use of them than paper packets (We then have a turn of events again, but it's that late in the war that things start to go to pot) with I'm packet production exceeding that of awards and spurious amounts of surplus this is where collectors get mixed up late boxes and mid war boxes etc and deem them all late.

I'll keep certain things to myself, otherwise there'd be no call for my book and no bugger would buy it

But my feeling on the packets, alas other things need to be tied up and eventually put in here, but the Ldo sorts they could have been for:

i. Perhaps a 'home made' version of a private purchase Ldo packet for the retail market, for as we know there was a shortage from documentation of issue packets as such for this market. Also, in the general terms of issue packets which was over seen by the Ldo. As the war progressed I think we can see late war packets where rules once stipulated aren't ahere'd too. And from late 1944 award makers were told to use what they had, evidence of this for a start can be seen with the ink blotted and paper covered packets with other desigantions on.

ii. The Ldo comandeered these packets perhaps ? Maybe they were stamped (some) and for what ever reasons the use never came into fruition.

It's all I can think of for now, but you may find this packet and the warrenty spacing interesting. Definately not a computor on this one, again dispelling this computer myth because that easier to accept than anything else.

I'll get this verified firstly as a printing techinque for the sake of it, I'm more than confident it will be and this spacing can be justified by other means. I do not believe in the comp myth that eminated on this forum, and I do know the cellophane packets are genuine further to that.

Again, we need to research this maker and the EK relationship for another string to the bow.

[hagwalther]

All sounds good Marcus.



I'll take a book off you too when it's ready.

All the best...

[MH184]

Mate it's only some picture and Ldo bumf I'd prefer not to show on the net, I won't be covering fakes in it or deduction. I'd e mail it, but to many prying eyes on here