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**90th Light** · 06-22-2015, 05:42 AM

Well at least we have agreed that there is no synethic material in the the Kreta C/T. What is the earliest date you have Antonio, for this type first making an appearance ?

Yes it will be interesting if we can find an image of the Afrika C/T variation that still exists or even better a title itself. It will also be interesting to see what the others who picked these hoards up say or handled

And do you really think the detail on the "25" is soft casting ?

Chris

Attached Files

P1012720.jpg (129.2 KB, 222 views)

**90th Light** · 06-22-2015, 05:48 AM

You just got to hand it to them how they have used an "RK"/ "JFS" hinge, pin, riverts and there are die stamp cut marks clearly on both badges except one has a quality mid-war silver plating and the other a late war oven baked wash,

Chris

p.s. In the lower 25 LGAB with clear die strike line is the top badge, RK LGAB with plating and faint die stamp lined is on the bottom

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**90th Light** · 06-22-2015, 06:42 AM

And back into the draw she goes. Lets hope I grabbed the right one

Chris

Attached Files

P1012725.jpg (135.1 KB, 214 views)

**Antonio Scapini** · 06-22-2015, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

What is the earliest date you have Antonio, for this type first making an appearance ?

Afrika and Kreta were "copied" since the '50 from several makers. I have advertisements since '50s.

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Yes it will be interesting if we can find an image of the Afrika C/T variation that still exists or even better a title itself.

I have 2 variations never showed here (+ others private made).
Both these variations are thousand times more credible of the AFRIKA CTs posted at the beginning of this thread.

Of the KRETA too exist some variations, but this is another question off topic here.

About the GAB 25 I don't think it is cast, I would say die struck. But this is off topic too here.

**Tim O'Keefe** · 06-26-2015, 03:22 AM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Let see what the KM badge guys like Norm F know or have seen Tim;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=1#post6978847

Could add a bit more to the mix,

Chris

Hi Chris

First thanks alot for your badge contribution from Luckenwalde Stalag IIIA. I'm sure many members will look forwards to you starting a thread on this source and the info that can be gained by such a venture...

I also applaud your efforts to find some more info about these interesting Afrika Ct's. Sadly after three different Forums including the KM Forum & 115 looks no more info has risen to the surface from the above thread.

Agree with Antonio the ct in the KM photo looks like a standard Afrika ct. Which is why i mentioned it in the first place. & that the Krete ct does not look good. Your ct collection is very nice with a couple of exceptions.

Also agree with the Matt & Antonio & others that all of these are post war ct's along with the tan, and the dark brown version often associated with Vet groupings. (How's that Uwe ? Thanks again

) There is just no evidence that these were used or made during the war.

The interesting Ct Antonio posted #8 is similar also except for the base material.

& last for now thanks for the further info on the Afrika ct from Luckenwalde. Please do keep us informed of any more info on that elusive ct ?

cheers
Tim

**90th Light** · 06-26-2015, 06:10 AM

No Tim you are not correct there is an on-going exchange of emails, photo albums, veteran accounts and what is in existing collection going on right now as we speak.

My biggest problem is what collectors want put up on WAF and what they do want put up. The biggest challenge is that some have never posted on WAF and simply will not for a range of reasons. Have read for yourself (below) but this is my challenge, trying to convince these guys to contribute what they are sitting on and we need to see/ know ;

"I have read the WA thread on the AFRIKA cuff title that our mutual friend picked up directly from an NZ veteran and that I owned for a few months. Incredible! as our mutual friend is supposed to have added the postwar cuff titles to his finds, or was it the NZ veteran who did it? Once again you come up against "Experten" who know it all and that is that. Black is white and white is black. I should be seeing this collector at a show next month, and I will ask him about that cuff title made before May 1945 and brought home by POW's from Stalag IIIA which according to those on WAF can simply not be war-time. Yet they were picked up in May 1945",

Chris

**Tim O'Keefe** · 06-27-2015, 04:51 AM

Hi Chris

Good to know the hunt is still on, your right i thought you had exausted your resources.

Sorry Chris, but i think we are talking about two different types of Afrika ct (neither is the standard version). Post #1-3 The tan, dark brown & red brown ct's i have shown sure look like they have all come from the same post war source. It is still being offered today to re-enactors, see post #7. There is NO evidence whatsover that these are made during the war and plenty of evidence that they are post war. The Veterans themselves picked up the dark brown version post war in the 50's not during the war. The KM photo is the standard Afrika ct not the red/brown version. So no physical evidence at this point. Many very knowledgeable ct collectors here on this thread are all in agreement on this as well.

However you have mentioned several times yet another version, the Luckenwalde version which is maybe/maybe not the same as these fakes. I'm thinking it may be more like Antonio's post #8 version ? (ask your friend ?) Look forwards to more info on it in the future. The Luckenwalde Krete ct has been confirmed a fake, so its possible the Afrika ct is a fake as well. We need physical/photographic evidence, not just the word of a vet who may not remember correctly after all these years.

Last for now, after that quote, no offence but your friend needs to take a chill

cheers mate !
Tim

**Tim O'Keefe** · 06-28-2015, 07:26 PM

Here is a thread in the 57er Forum on the dark brown version of this type of ct, also described as post war.
There is also a very interesting Afrikakorps ct too ?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=802268

**90th Light** · 10-29-2015, 06:03 AM

I find it interesting that this "Hermann Goring" cuff-title is considered original pre-May 1945 without question;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=826792

when it is clearly produced on what is called 1957 type backing material for a Kreta cuff-title on this thread

???

Chris

Attached Files

**90th Light** · 10-29-2015, 06:08 AM

Comparison,

Hermann Goring Pre-May 1945 cufftitle with a POW brought back Kreta cuff-title

Note the weave and type of backing cloth.

Interesting to say the least,

Chris

Attached Files

**Tim O'Keefe** · 10-30-2015, 03:29 AM

Hi Chris

Thanks for posting up the HGCT. Are you saying the HG is the same backing material as the fakes i've shown ? or your strange Luckenwalde version, or both ? Not sure i see it either way yet. But does your Krete have the same backing material as the one example ct Antonio posted #58 ? i think your pics do not do your Krete ct justice by the way...

I know next to nothing about HG ct's, except this one is not one of the standard versions that i've seen. if Willi & OSS say its good, it very likely is.

By the way i do not know the Krete's well enough yet to make the call. But if Antonio & Patrick agree yours is fake, thats a couple strong opinions. Just as strong as Willi & OSS and Michael on the HG ct

Also still am interested in the Luckenwalde Afrika ct if any more info surfaces ?

cheers
Tim

**90th Light** · 10-31-2015, 05:10 AM

I do not know Tim,

never seen an HG Cuff-title like it. If the Kreta on that type of backing are post-war then I would have assumed that the HG was in the same league. However, as you say Willi & OSS like it so they have obviously seen this type before and war time (pre-May 45) to boot,

Chris

**Antonio Scapini** · 10-31-2015, 02:34 PM

I have not deep knowledge on HG cufftitles, but to be honest I really don't like this one, fabric looks modern, never seen a CT with this type of fabric. I would like to know some more about it.

**90th Light** · 10-31-2015, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post

I have not deep knowledge on HG cufftitles, but to be honest I really don't like this one, fabric looks modern, never seen a CT with this type of fabric. I would like to know some more about it.

I agree Antonio,

I do not feel comfortable with the way the letter are embroidered on the reverse side. Hence it would be interesting to learn why the very advanced collectors are at ease with it,

Chris

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