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**90th Light** · 06-21-2015, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post

Good eye Leroy!
Chris, are you sure all these pieces are a wartime find? To be honest from what I see the Kreta CT let me suspicious, but tomorrow I'll check in my database.
Isn't it possible some pieces were added later or that all could be like the famous "Steinhauer & Luck barter board" where we found the flat back BKA, early postwar?

It is what they had in stock in Luckenwalde at the end of April 1945 Antonio,

The "Kreta" is a weird one for sure, the letters are embroidered 101% the correct way but the backing cloth is strange sort of soft material. I have never found/ seen another one like it. It brings to mind what my friend said originally about the "Afrika" C/T we now are seeking to find, "the one from the "Luckenwalde" find was a much finer weave, and was soft to handle"

Many do not like the ball hinge glider badge either and say that is an impossibility so who knows for sure.

The "25' was in a box from a veteran with the Osangs, RSS, RK's, BSW's, airgunners FJ & pilot badges plus other LGAB's.

There is another draw with a few more Aircrew badges that I have not photographed because as you have pointed out, it is all very interesting but not really solving the "Afrika" C/T question.

However, it is one of the real veteran hoards and that is what I wanted to show you where I was coming from

I have documented as many of the veterans and their stories as I have been able to but my research continues especially with other collectors who also got badges from this find. Will start a thread on it when I have it all organised and written up,

Chris

**Leroy** · 06-21-2015, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post

...or that all could be like the famous "Steinhauer & Luck barter board" where we found the flat back BKA, early postwar?

Antonio - No proof of that.

**Antonio Scapini** · 06-21-2015, 10:52 AM

Apart the cufftitles I think it could be very interesting open a thread for the 25 LW GAB. As you know this badge is considered postwar and this find can change collectors community point of view!

Leroy, as far as I know the barter board was brought back early postwar. What's wrong on this statement? Do you know something I miss?
We don't know if the S&L BKA is wartime or not.

**Leroy** · 06-21-2015, 11:03 AM

Antonio - Not arguing with you, and certainly those particular boards (and all others) were brought back after hostilities were concluded, but so far nothing on them has been proven to be postwar (in fact 99% have been shown to match wartime pieces). Some few things may have been things we hadn't seen before, but that is no proof.

**afrikasandman** · 06-21-2015, 03:03 PM

Gentlemen,

IM a bit late to this party as I was on a long weekend with the family. I agree with Tim and Antonio that I believe these to be post war cuff titles. There are a ton of variations out there of originals but these are not ones I would rate among them at this point and time.

As for this elusive cuff from the New Zelanders, it sounds really interesting. I would love to see that cuff if it shows up... it has to be in someones collection. Matt

**Antonio Scapini** · 06-21-2015, 03:08 PM

I absolutely agree with you Leroy, that's the reason why we should demonstrate if a piece is wartime with solid unquestionable proofs.
Take for example the LW GAB 25...

**90th Light** · 06-21-2015, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post

Apart the cufftitles I think it could be very interesting open a thread for the 25 LW GAB. As you know this badge is considered postwar and this find can change collectors community point of view!

Yes I realise that Antonio,

I was an early defender of the "ball-hinge glider" based on this find and that met with quite strong resistance from some quarters and still does to this day.

Also lets wait and see what you find on your data base about the "Kreta" because that is not run of the mill either.

To be honest, I am too scared to put the "25" up until I have as many facts about this find as possible. Hence why my research continues. Such a badge coming from me, they will not take prisoners on this one. It has always been my hope that another might surface and I could add to such a thread rather than lead the charge.

At this stage I think it is another unknown "Gablonz" product and I have my reasons for saying that,

Chris

**Patrick W** · 06-21-2015, 04:36 PM

Hi Chris

Looks like some pretty incredible late war pieces in that collection, some of the flight clasps are extremely hard to find, great stuff.

Like the others mentioned, the Kreta and 25 GAB give some pause, we really need to see some photos of those. I understand your reluctance to post the badge but there are enough very serious badge guys here who will recognise wartime maker traits if they are indeed there. Sadly sometimes vet lots were seeded with post war purchases as we all know.

ps. as far as I am aware there is no contention on the ball hinge glider anymore- all serious collectors and researchers consider this an original badge now I believe.

**90th Light** · 06-21-2015, 05:27 PM

I understand what you are saying Patrick,

I am rushing out the door for work. It has been snowing here but the roads are now clear so its all on.

Here are a couple of quick images seeing as I have put a cat amongst the pigeons before I lock the badges away for now. I will let the images do the talking. I am not too phased one way or the other after the "ball-hinge threads. There was a lot of "Gablonz" product in the Luckenwalde finds.

The "Kreta" is a weird one for sure,

Chris

Attached Files

**Patrick W** · 06-21-2015, 06:32 PM

Hi Chris

Many thanks for the images, they really do tell a great deal about those items. I will give you my opinion but it is only my opinion so please do not take any offence as I appreciate you taking the time to show these pieces.

The Kreta is a typically found postwar version, occasionally described as being 57er issue but more likely IMO to be a complete reproduction, possibly done some time ago though.

The numbered ground assault is a nice attempt to replicate the same setup as the 2 lovely RK/MuK5 badges you show alongside it. If you compare closely though there are many differences and the detail is very soft. My personal belief is that this badge is complete copy.

However apart from these 2 the rest of your vet find stuff appears to be incredible and genuine so you are very lucky indeed. I would guess that that the guy acquired them sometime probably in the 60's thinking they were real and they were just absorbed into the group

best

Patrick

**Tim O'Keefe** · 06-21-2015, 06:47 PM

Hi Patrick

I appreciate that this thread has more than one subject at this point....

What about these Afrika Ct's ?

thanks
Tim

**90th Light** · 06-21-2015, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by Patrick W View Post

Hi Chris

Many thanks for the images, they really do tell a great deal about those items. I will give you my opinion but it is only my opinion so please do not take any offence as I appreciate you taking the time to show these pieces.

The Kreta is a typically found postwar version, occasionally described as being 57er issue but more likely IMO to be a complete reproduction, possibly done some time ago though.

The numbered ground assault is a nice attempt to replicate the same setup as the 2 lovely RK/MuK5 badges you show alongside it. If you compare closely though there are many differences and the detail is very soft. My personal belief is that this badge is complete copy.

However apart from these 2 the rest of your vet find stuff appears to be incredible and genuine so you are very lucky indeed. I would guess that that the guy acquired them sometime probably in the 60's thinking they were real and they were just absorbed into the group

best

Patrick

I am far from offended Patrick and value your postings/ opinion,

A friend has just text-ed me upon reading this and asked, if the 25 LGAB is a "soft" copy lacking detail then were is the original that they made the lost wax copy from ???

At the end of the day this is a 1945 pot/ monkey metal, die cast being badge compared with a mid-war, die struck, zinc, plated quality MuK5 & RK.

It will be interesting to see how many "Kreta" C/T's Antonio has on his files with this exact same "soft" diagonal backing material. That will tell us something for sure.

I can only repeat, have had these for many, many years and they came with the other badges from the "Luckenwalde" finds.

I am still compiling my research, I have some photos of these badges with the veterans at different time periods and intend to start a thread on this once I have more material from other collectors who also picked up these hoards.

As Tim has pointed out, this thread is about the Afrika C/T variations made before May 1945 of which there was an example found at "Luckenwalde",

Chris

**Antonio Scapini** · 06-22-2015, 03:29 AM

Chris, I have me too no doubts the Kreta CT was added to this group after the war.
This pattern will be showed in my next book between the fakes. Base fabric is synthetic and the whole construction is typical of postwar fakes.

At this point Chris I have to be honest: I don't think all these pieces are an unquestionable find, some of them are certainly good, but some others IMO were added later.
The whole group is not what I would call a solid rock unquestionable proof.
About the LW GAB 25 I let speak those who know this field better than me, but looking at these pictures is a piece I would not want in my collection.

Attached Files

**90th Light** · 06-22-2015, 04:50 AM

Thanks Antonio,

the backing cloth on mine is slightly different with a diagonal twill effect running through it. However, I can see the similarity in the letters etc.

There is no synthetic material what so ever in my one. I have just gone all over it with a black light, no glow any where (see below) And I did a burn test on all parts. Every thing turn to pre-May 1945 type ash.

Do you want pictures of the burn test ?

Your one may be made of post-war synthetic materials but mine is not ???

Chris

Attached Files

**Antonio Scapini** · 06-22-2015, 05:26 AM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Thanks Antonio,

the backing cloth on mine is slightly different with a diagonal twill effect running through it. However, I can see the similarity in the letters etc.

There is no synthetic material what so ever in my one. I have just gone all over it with a black light, no glow any where (see below) And I did a burn test on all parts. Every thing turn to pre-May 1945 type ash.

Do you want pictures of the burn test ?

Your one may be made of post-war synthetic materials but mine is not ???

Chris

Hi Chris, too bad today black light test and burn test are not definitive. I have several cloth pieces I bought since years as fakes just to make comparisons and study them, and not all of them glows under the black light. Furthermore I have original cloth pieces washed with modern detergent that glow.

About the backing cloth the diagonal twill effect is only an optical effect due to the angle and the light.

There are no doubts both these CT come from the same factory, and absolutely no doubt both are postwar copies.

At this point I would really love to see a picture of the famous Afrika CT, but I think it could be added as the Kreta.

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KM or '57 Reunion, or fake Afrika ct's

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